S/o parachute - sensitivity/chumra vs. OCD

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amother

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 10:21 am

I'm sure this has been discussed many times on this forum, but I couldn't find the threads. I'm spinning off the parachute thread where the OP says that the parachute at weddings is not tzniusdik, because it gives the impression that the kallah's skirt is being lifted.

We all know that tznius is just as much about sensitivity as it is the letter of the law. In general, there are many people who believe that "kol hamarbeh harei zeh meshubach" in all areas of Yiddishkeit. However, we also have the mitzva of "bal tosif" and the principle of "kol hamosif goreia." (Sorry for the transliteration, I'm on a Mac and have no patience to figure out how to add the Hebrew keyboard.)

When does chumrah or sensitivity cross the line into "bal tosif" and/or OCD? Is there any way to clearly delineate? Is it fair to say that one person's chumrah is another person's OCD? Also, how do we teach sensitivities without alienating those who are not holding there, especially our youth?

I don't think there are any ifs, ands, or buts about the parachute scenario. I'm just spinning off since that's what got me thinking about it.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Gray

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 10:35 am

Does one must have a parachute at their wedding? Is it "bal tosif" to not have one?

As long as one's sensitivities don't infringe on other people, and don't interfere with their own lives (which is how I would diagnose OCD), why is it a problem to you?

-Lime amother from the parachute thread

chatz

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 10:47 am

I think in these types of things, it is important to have a mentor or rebbetzin to get an opinion before implementing a chumra. Some things are praiseworthy, some things are ocd or even against the Torah, and some things may be praiseworthy by one person and ocd by another.

A person is too close to himself to evaluate objectively.

icedcoffee

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 10:50 am

The parachute thread was eye opening to me. I think this is the key:

Quote:

As long as one's sensitivities don't infringe on other people, and don't interfere with their own lives

It's fine to say "eh, it looks like skirt lifting to me so I don't like it and I'm not going to have this at my wedding" but it's not okay to say "that kallah was so untznius, it wasn't dignified of her to do that" when it's only your personal sense of disliking it and not anything that she is doing wrong. Do what you're comfortable with, only surround yourself by people you find praiseworthy if that's what you want, but it's not right to start imposing your own restrictions on other people if there isn't anything halachically impermissible about it.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 10:57 am

There's no answer. What seems like an absurd chumra to one person, is a beautiful mitzvah to another. There's always a sefer that references this or that, and even if you don't know the sefer or where it's brought down, you can always go with, "I think I once learned that......"

Just the other day I read here the the male aver is like a sefer torah. What does this mean? Can my boys go swimming? You wouldn't put a sefer torah in a swimming pool. But someone says they "think" they learned it "somewhere". Ok, good enough. Let's go with that.

OOTforlife

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 10:59 am

To me, a sensitivity is something that develops organically in an individual. If a girl keeps something because it is a school rule or because she'll be viewed negatively or gossiped about, that's not a sensitivity. It's just following an externally imposed rule.

amother

Puce

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 10:59 am

I think the parachute thing is not particularly dignified, and wouldn't want it at a simcha of mine. But people are enjoying themselves innocently. I can be happy for them and still not share their standards.

I'm MO and quite sure that things I do are shockingly unacceptable to some of the mothers here. But we can respect the fact that a sensitivity doesn't have halachic standing.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 11:06 am

smileforamile wrote:

This is my general perspective on it (with exceptions of course).

A Chumrah is a sensitivity when you ask of it of yourself. It becomes OCD when you demand and expect everyone around you to follow suit.

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 11:44 am

icedcoffee wrote:

The parachute thread was eye opening to me. I think this is the key:

Quote:

As long as one's sensitivities don't infringe on other people, and don't interfere with their own lives

Agree. I happen to not like the parachute (I didn't know it was supposed to be a parachute. That does help a little.) But I wouldn't object to my daughter having it if she wanted it (she doesn't.) Everyone doesn't have to do everything my way and according to my sensitivities.

watergirl

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 11:57 am

Chayalle wrote:

When I got married, the shtick was to give the kallah a stuffed bear with a pin in the paw and all the friends would dance around her with balloons to pop. Cute. I thought it was dumb so I asked my friends not to get the bear from the shtick gmach. I hear you with not liking this particular shtick, and as we know, they go in and out of style anyways so who knows what will be next. I wonder how many people have "sensitivities" regarding the jump-rope with napkins that kallahs do. I mean, her chest can be pretty bouncy, depending on the kallah, right? So will this be the next thread?

Re: sensitivities, like I said before in the other thread and elsewhere as well, I think this is a very fine line. As usual, Chayalle, you represent a very well rounded and reasonable representation of your hashkafic leanings and I always love to read your posts.

I have found here that people use these terms to almost humblebrag. They have such "sensitivities", they think things are "unrefined" (which is just another way of saying that I am better than you, and I look down on you), they say things are not classy (like unrefined), etc. No where are people taking the onus onto themselves to work on their own middos. These are just projections onto other people. Making limitations onto what is ok for OTHER people can/should do. Where is the responsibility to work on myself? If I am looking at a kallah and think her skirt is being lifted up, when really its a wedding game, its on ME to re-direct my thinking. Not on the kallah and friends to be more "refined".

There is a real thing called Religious OCD, and these sensitivities are what gives licence to people to go after more and more things to assur. There are people who will think anything is un-tznius because they legitimately have religious OCD. What terrifies me is that I think some of these people have large followings who dont or wont recognize OCD patterns and just follow. This is a VERY slippery slope, as we have seen in other arenas of Jewish life, it gets out of hand without anyone realizing it and then no one remembers how it started in the first place.

chanatron1000

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 12:09 pm

If a person is happy following a chumrah and it seems to come from a place of loving Hashem and wanting to do more, it's a chumrah. If the person seems afraid or otherwise negative and seems to insist on following it out of fear, it's possibly OCD.

thunderstorm

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 12:09 pm

watergirl wrote:

This is very true. I was going to bring the napkin jump rope as an example as well. The kallahs need to lift their gowns to jump. They are covered with multiple petticoats, but here they actually lift their skirts. This has been done for over 30 years and nobody has an issue with it and they shouldn't .
Whoever wants to have extra sensitivities should do so for themselves .
My mothers friend colors in her skin top part on her sheitel with a black sharpie marker. Nice. What's not nice is that she made my mother do it as well and told her that it's not ok if she doesn't.

chicco

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 12:13 pm

The whole idea of sensitivity is personal. Either you have it or you don't. As soon as you start projecting your own sensitivities on others, that's problematic. For your own mental health, it is also important to understand what is what. If something is OCD, a chumra, or a sensitivity. Either way it should remain personal.

amother

Gray

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 12:23 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

I told my friends I will not jump rope at my wedding. It's not dignified. Sorry.
BTW, I also told them I wouldn't get onto a table with or without an umbrella. It's stupid and would make me feel like a clown, not a regal kallah.

amother

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 12:31 pm

There are some really good responses on this thread. Thank you. You've given me a lot of food for thought.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

watergirl

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 12:32 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

See, this is the thing that some people are saying - if you feel its not dignified FOR YOU, then thats ok for you to say. If you feel that its not regal FOR YOU, than ok. But your comment is making a sweeping declaration onto EVERY kallah who engages in these games. You do whats good for you and let others do whats good for them and leave judgement about others to HKBH and His agents.

amother

Purple

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 12:36 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Cool. Your wedding your call.

I won't wear a pom-pom hat.
I won't put any fuzzy accessories on my daughter's head.

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