Do you write besula on the invitation for dd ?

amother

Vermilion

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 1:49 am

Context: I'm a BT.

Besula was written on my invite, at first I thought it was weird but in my chosson's circles(chasidish) the omission would be an admission of NOT being a besula. So, as I was, we wrote. Never gave it a second bother.

singleagain

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 3:35 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

if a kallah never been married before, is not a virgin she needs to tell the Rabbi??

It might matter more for the ketubah then the wedding invite

Aylat

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 3:48 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

Really? We can't write an invitation without running to a rabbi?

Aylor for the ketubah not the invitation.

banana123

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 7:40 am

So glad we're Chabad. Very Happy

We were told to use the text of the Rebbe's invitation and that writing besulah on the invite was a lack of tznius.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 8:47 am

I don't think it should be written on the ketuba either. I think we have moved past the stage where women's worth is measured by their virginity.

I wonder if more modern rabbis omit the 'betula' part from the ketuba. Anyone know?

Ema of 5

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 9:13 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

I think I’m many cases it’s a formality on the kesuba. I know a few people who were not virgins when they got married, and the kesubas all said besula.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 9:24 am

Ema of 4 wrote:

I think I’m many cases it’s a formality on the kesuba. I know a few people who were not virgins when they got married, and the kesubas all said besula.

I realise it's just a formality. It's become an empty, meaningless formality since very often it says betula when the bride isn't.

Also, it's offensive to many today to consider that virginity defines them (and only them. The man's virgin status is irrelevant to his worth as husband).

I wonder if more liberal rabbis still include this phrase in the ketuba.

amother

Babypink

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 9:48 am

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

my rabbi coughed when that was read under the chuppah(I had a brief marriage before )

I got married the second time still a virgin, and was told to not put the word besula on the kesuba either.

SixOfWands

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 10:42 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

To me the words before dont matter much, though in my community it is common practice to include the word besula but I don't anyone looks for it. The only time I checked an invitation to see if it had the word besula was when an acquaintance of mine got married and it was known that she had dtd with one of her neighbors while still in HS. Lo and behold the word besula was there. So apparently, the word doesn't carry that much meaning to some so it doesn't matter all that much. The couple should be happy and healthy and have great shalom bayis, no matter their salutation.

It was probably just rumored by nasty, vicious people, and she put it in on the invitation to make that clear to people. BH that the lashon hara didn't ruin her life.

amother

Salmon

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 12:01 pm

I was an older single who was horrified at the word besula. I insisted on removing it from my wedding invitation (my parents used that text for my sisters) because I thought its beyond tacky and invasive.

amother

Azure

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 12:14 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

I think I’m many cases it’s a formality on the kesuba. I know a few people who were not virgins when they got married, and the kesubas all said besula.

I was not a besula when I got married. The kesuba that was read under the chuppa said besula. After the ceremony, my husband and I were taken aside and were given a second kesuba that omitted the word - we were told that was the "official" one. I know of at least one other friend who had the same experience.

amother

Bronze

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 12:25 pm

I am chassidish and never gave it a second thought. By my own invitation we just went to the print shop, chose a nice design and gave over our information to be put into the template. So it probably said "hakallah habesulah hamehullalah"
That's standard. I didn't even know that a virgin or besulah meant someone who never had s-x, I thought it meant someone who was never married before. And I think that's what it's meant to mean on the invitation as well.

At a friend's second marriage, I actually listened when they were reading the kesubah because I was wondering if they would say besulah. They didn't.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 12:50 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

I hope the sum offered was no less.
The whole scenario makes me very uncomfortable.
(Those I know of had no 'second' ketuba afterwards).

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 2:10 pm

The sum anyway is a lot symbolic in our times, when the court settles all this.
The sum depends by your status. Nothing to do.

amother

Papaya

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 2:10 pm

I was divorced before with no kids so a lot of people didn’t know. My ketubah does not say besulah though.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 3:01 pm

Ruchel wrote:

The sum anyway is a lot symbolic in our times, when the court settles all this.
The sum depends by your status. Nothing to do.

What do you mean 'nothing to do'?
The sum is decided on by the chatan and the rav. Very few chatans are going to tell the rav to knock some off the sum because the woman isn't a virgin.

Today, there is no standard sum for a betula and a different one for a nonbetula.
If a couple wants, the chatan can sign a million dollars on the ketuba for a woman who has slept with the whole town.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 8:48 am

There is a standard sum. Very few differ. Yes, you can put a million, some do put huge sums to show off and/or cultural. But very few.