PSA vegan is still treif

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:49 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

"academic discussion" and "encouraging people... to aim higher" are conflicting statements.

Ok. You got me.

behappy2

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:52 pm

malki2 wrote:

I’m not saying anything that complicated. A Rav will give a heter if you ask for one. If you don’t ask, he usually won’t offer one unless he sees a need. I’m not questioning the Rav’s psak. I’m trying to make a point that in my opinion, based on my experience, it’s possible to stay away from these things altogether without offending the clients. Sort of like refusing to shake hands. If you ask a Rav, he will usually tell you it’s not an issue. But you can usually go a step higher and get out of it altogether.

Not exactly. People call their Rav for Hadracha. Please don't assume that if someone asked a shaalah that it was "Dial a heter"

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 4:58 pm

malki2 wrote:

Ok. You got me.

I get your point of view.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 5:01 pm

behappy2 wrote:

Not exactly. People call their Rav for Hadracha. Please don't assume that if someone asked a shaalah that it was "Dial a heter"

Maybe I was a little harsh with that statement. I didn’t mean to paint everyone like that. But what I said does happen to be true in a lot of situations.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 5:02 pm

malki2 wrote:

Maybe I was a little harsh with that statement. I didn’t mean to paint everyone like that. But what I said does happen to be true in a lot of situations.

Curious how you know this to be true.

giselle

Tue, May 26 2020, 5:07 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Because a poster here stated that without exception, anyone who would eat in such circumstances isn't frum.

I’m not going back to read the whole thread again, but I have been following, and if I recall correctly, the poster was referring to someone who says she doesn’t follow derabanan. Where I think she was incorrect, as I stated in a previous post, is her statement that there is no room for discussion about certain aspects of bishul akum, when there are clearly rabanim who disagree with what she wrote.

Raisin

Tue, May 26 2020, 5:46 pm

tichellady wrote:

Why would I be talking about non orthodox rabbis? How is that relevant to this discussion???

My point about the vegan restaurant versus non-vegan restaurant is not that a person who needs to eat immediately should drive to Find a vegan restaurant but that there’s obviously a difference in kashrut when it comes to eating something vegan ( maybe a derabbanan but may actually be fine ) versus eating treif meat ( deoraita) which I think some of the posters here did not seem to get.

I’m not going to name rabbis because that doesn’t end well for me on this site. I don’t think the only issue that comes up is someone having a business meeting it can be an issue of being a convert and trying to eat while taking care of your elderly parents in their non kosher facility, being a patient in a hospital where there is no kosher food, traveling to a foreign country for work or other reason where kosher food is hard to find. I know people in tough food situations due to quarantine because of covid. I know someone who was supposed to have a kosher pre Yom Kippur meal that was canceled an hour before Yom Kippur and she needed to Find food quickly. There is a reason why Chazal didn’t say you can’t eat any food prepared by a non Jew ever, there are exceptions to bishul akum for people to rely on.

Really outside of the US none of this is surprising. I have traveled a lot fortunately and kashrut ( by orthodox rabbis) is very different in Much of the world compared to the US. But that’s a whole other topic 😀

I live outside of the US. In a city with no kosher restaurants or even a decent kosher shop. So all I am telling you is based on keeping strictly kosher in a little city outside of the US. Although we ourselves are chabad I am talking about regular orthodox standards kept by our frum community members, not just our standards which are obviously higher. Still, plenty of travellers here manage to eat strictly kosher. It's tough and not easy but if its important to you you do it. I have been in hospitals many times with no kosher meals. I just bring food with me. (bh in the last few years there has actually been kosher meals available in hospitals)

My M.O friend has a mother with dementia is looked after by a non Jewish carer during the week. My friend was told by her rav she may not use the same pots for her own food that the carer cooks in for her mother. (obviously only kosher food). That is a tough situation and you would think a rav would be lenient but he isn't.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:04 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Curious how you know this to be true.

Because I grew up in a certain community / background where this was the MO. (Play-on-words not intended.)

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:15 pm

malki2 wrote:

Because I grew up in a certain community / background where this was the MO. (Play-on-words not intended.)

and have extrapolated it so it it applies to a lot of situations?

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:18 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

and have extrapolated it so it it applies to a lot of situations?

If you’re going to be on my case, at least use your screen name. I said that I know it to be true, and you asked me how, and I answered you. You seem to be particularly agitated by my comments, and I’m not sure why.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:25 pm

malki2 wrote:

I didn't like (still don't) your characterization of rabbonim, so yes agitated is a good word.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:41 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

I didn't like (still don't) your characterization of rabbonim, so yes agitated is a good word.

Sorry. That’s the way it is in a lot of cases. A Rov is not a Novi. He doesn’t see through to your heart unless he knows you very well and is very capable. Much of the time a Rov will respond to a shayla in the way that it’s presented. If a person feels that he or she needs a certain heter, the Rov will not always try to second-guess him or her.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:47 pm

malki2 wrote:

Okay. I'm not comfortable having this conversation anymore because of the hearsay.

malki2

Tue, May 26 2020, 6:50 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Okay. I'm not comfortable having this conversation anymore because of the hearsay.

It’s not hearsay. DH actually heard this from a prominent Rosh Yeshiva. It’s just the reality.

Hillery

Tue, May 26 2020, 9:51 pm

Yael wrote:

Nasty personal attacks have been removed. Each person who took the time to post a personal attack instead of just scrolling on by, can expect a message from me soon.

Is a civil discussion without nasty attacks too much to ask for?

Thank you. This is as neutral as can be, so I really don't see why some feel the need to be rude.

This thread was mainly inspired by something written in another thread, but not only because of that. I've more than once heard people talking about eating in vegan places, or buying veggie sushi. People who might be well meaning and ehrlich in their own way, but they don't realise bishul akum is a serious issue.

At most, if they do know about bishul akum, they think it's a chumra or a lekatchila. But people have to realise it's mamesh treif. So far as to make the pots ossur too. That is besides for other issues that posters have mentioned, like wine vinegar in dressings or bugs.

malki2

Wed, May 27 2020, 6:03 am

giselle wrote:

No, she said she did eat pizza.

She said that the pizza is muttar because it doesn’t go on a king’s table. I asked that it should be muttar regardless, because it is baked, not cooked, so it’s like bread.