College ds feels embarrassed by something I did

zaq

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 12:39 pm

Parents should not micromanage their children's college careers; however, OP had every right and indeed a responsibility to take issue with a major Jewish organization that she felt was doing something antithetical to its values and mission. OP wasn't lobbying for a better grade for her ds or asking that her be barred from taking a certain course; she was telling YU , quite rightly, that this material is inappropriate for YU. OP didn't have to be the parent of a YU student to write this letter; she could have been any member of the Jewish community at large.

The ds is embarrassed? Tough. His mom is entitled to voice her opinions.

amother

Maroon

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 12:45 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Agree with OP to a degree. That dress is awful. Yes it is tight. I dont know how anyone can say its not ridiculously tight! I would hate for my college aged son to be watching that.
Good job for writing in OP. You are a good lady. Its important for institutions to know if some of their parent body is disappointed about something.
Unfortunately to my knowledge, dress like that is very normal in YU/Stern. But your son could tell you that.
In future, dont mention your son, just mention your own disappointment. You go girl!

I went to Stern, and there is a range of what girls there wear. Some wear tighter, some looser, some pants, some only long skirts. But, please I see plenty of tight skirts here in Brooklyn, looking a lot more provocative.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:00 pm

zaq wrote:

Ok. Let's switch it around. The mom is a faculty member at Yeshiva University. The son is an adult, not a student at YU.

He is really upset about the clip. Is it within his rights to tell this 'major Jewish organization' that this clip is 'antithetical to its values and mission'? Can he write the dean and all the rebbeim and express his shock at this 'provocative' video?

Can he do this with his own name, which OP said is a unique name and will be recognized? Yes I know legally he can. The question is, is it a sensitive, respectful thing to intrude on your mother's turf and make a fuss there?

Is the son 'entitled to voice his opinions' regardless of how it will affect his mother?

cnc

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:05 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Yes he is.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:17 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

OBVIOUSLY you don't share other adults' feelings in an official letter without their approval.

However, I think you are also out of line sharing only YOUR thoughts if it's your son's turf. Give him space. People will naturally connect the two of you, and fair or unfair, your opinions and actions reflect on him. It's not fair to do that.

Yes I know it stunts your great American freedom of speech. What can you do. There are other values that take priority here, like allowing an adult child space and privacy to carve their own identity.

You know how they advise you to first work on your own middot, rather than criticise others? Well, it's similar here. Focus on your own territory, your own home turf, rather than intruding on your son's. I'm sure there is plenty of tznius improvement to be done in your world.

It happens to be her son's school but it's h
Not just his turf. It's supposed to the gold standard flagship. It's supposed to be the metric by what modern orthodoxy measures itself. Whatever has the YU name on it is what the world sees as modern orthodox.

She isn't only allowed. But in this case obligated to say. "This was beneath you and what you stand for"

I didn't watch the video and I don't care to. It's not about tsniut. It's about upholding values even within the modern world.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:50 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I guess I don't think this is the biggest fight we have to fight out there.

If she were protesting something major and awful, like a prof accused of harrassment, or violence on campus, or the like, I could see why there might be room to say she should have a voice even though it's intruding on her son's turf.

But it's a measly dress that might be an inch too tight. For this? For this you write your son's rebbeim?

She didn't write as some anonymous lady worried about the future of modern orthodoxy. She wrote as a parent paying tuition. There is a huge difference. And even if she hadn't mentioned she's a parent - I still don't think the issue is urgent enough to intrude.

I strongly believe in letting adults having a bit of breathing room.

Let's imagine a different scenario, since some people here don't seem to see what's so important about space. The wife is a prominent faculty member. The husband graduated 20 years ago. Can he write an angry letter to the dean and all the rebbeim? You don't think that would reflect badly on his wife?

amother

Babypink

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:55 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Her only mistake was mentioning her son at all. That's it.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 2:13 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Her only mistake was mentioning her son at all. That's it.

naturalmom5

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 2:34 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I really resent being dragged into this tempest in a tea pot .
But like many posters have already said...
Many many women wear outfits that are LOT MORE provocative and banal on the streets of BP and Lakewood.
And they still consider themselves to be " real yeshivish " families..
The stewardess in the video was very tastefully dressed for YU..
So stop it.. Just stop it...

tstein

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My point was not to debate about tzanua- but no it is NOT tzanua per the actual delineation of their standards. Yes people dress like that. There is no Tzniut police like in high school , but it is not per their standards... the Rav would be mortified.

I know your point was not to debate about tznius, but it still hurts me on a visceral level when people bash YU unfairly to further some personal agenda. This is the YU dress code — I don't see how there was any violation:

Yeshiva University Undergraduate Dress Code
 Female students are required to wear dresses or skirts that are
knee-length, and tops that have sleeves and a modest neckline.
 Male students are required to wear pants and a shirt.
The Dress Code is in effect in the academic buildings of the University
at all times.

I also don't see how this ought to be their agenda. From the YU Commentator: Dean Bacon explained that halacha was not a factor in determining the dress code, but rather that it was written as a reflection of Modern Orthodox values. While it is certainly safe to say that halachic convention regarding dress influenced the accepted values being reflected in the dress code, specific Halachic opinions were not influential.

There are men who go to classes at YU and don't wear a kippa and tzitzis, but at the end of day, this is also not in violation of YU's policies. YU as a whole doesn't embody all of the Yeshiva's values or all of the Rav's values. YU's hashkafa is more broad, and its rules are proof of this. And if somehow this, to you, is a violation of modern orthodox values, then I'm sorry to say that you are not conventionally modern orthodox...

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:31 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

If you didnt watch the video you have no idea how the woman was ACTUALLY dressed. Her knees and collar bone were covered. She had long sleeves on and the dress was NOT skin tight at all. Think straight dress, thats all. There was nothing about this dress that would not uphold the values even within the modern world.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:33 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

General comment because I keep seeing people mention this: Just because other people (and communities) do things wrong, doesn’t mean wrong shouldn’t be called out as such!
It’s not relevant how the ladies of boro park dress. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong!

But thats just it. The dress was NOT actually not tzanua. Knees, elbows, collar bone were all very much covered. The dress was not skin tight at all. It was just a straight form fitting dress, but it was not tight on her body. There was literally nothing wrong with this dress.

BetsyTacy

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:44 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I just saw the video on my laptop. The problem is that there is VPL going on. Maybe in real life it wasn't as clear that one could see her pantylines, but with the light of the camera on her, I would classify it as a fashion don't. I would also differ with the opinion on the tightness of the dress- maybe it showed up differently on my laptop, but let's just say that I wouldn't want a male relative of mine at YU to walk behind her.

Last edited by BetsyTacy on Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Aqua

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 3:58 pm

Watched the video. Yes, the bottom of the dress was way too tight.

I am not MO, but don't think most MO ppl would dislike it. OP doesn't seem to be typical MO. Maybe what's. called YU shtark?

I'm yeshivish. I'm offended by ppl saying that's normal in lkwd and bp. No it's not.
I love oot, but visited lkwd this summer. Ppl did not dress like that, although I did see ladies there wearing shells as shirts.

OP, I think next time contact whomever you eant, but do it in YOUR name, and Maybe don't tell son. It's better not to make a big deal out of pritzus with boys, because it's bringing it more and more to mind. Since he was the one to bring it uo, if tell him that I agree with him and am impressed by his sensitivity. But not more than that.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 4:01 pm

BetsyTacy wrote:

Ihave no idea what a VPL is.
Also, this was a VIDEO. Not talking about in real life if someone wants their males or not to be walking behind her.
I didnt see any panty lines. Then again, I wasnt looking.

amother

Bisque

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 4:03 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

No. They. Do. Not.

(Maybe watch it on a computer. It's literally a slip dress showing every line and curve right through it.)

zaq

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 4:09 pm

zaq

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 4:12 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Vulgar Public Lewdness?
Vicious Personal Libel?
Vast Potential Lasciviousness?