Some Hashkafah teachers mess up kids.................

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Judaism

Previous 1 2 3

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

chaylizi

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 5:53 pm

gold 21 are you serious? I would not have been able to go to school. Maybe we got yelled at for doing things wrong- but we got normal reasons like: no you can't do that b/c it's not tznius. maybe that's why I was so surprised. I'm an out of towner. Not even an east coaster.

Last edited by chaylizi on Mon, Mar 24 2008, 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

chocolate moose

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 5:53 pm

amother wrote:

Wow, I'm a convert who grew up in the so-called Bible Belt (named only after their fake version of the Bible) and I never dreamed that Jews talked like this...sounds like the fundamentalists...(after I became frum I did hear some talk like this, but not from people I knew)

I remember a sign on the road that said "Hell is not just a curse word!"

LOL

loves it, amother !!!!!

gold21

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 6:02 pm

Yeah chanaroch it was a little nuts. I wasn't scared to go to school or anything, though I was Terrified of the principal. It basically was just not a nice environment and you made sure to follow every rule to the T wether or not it made sense.

Anyhow you're out of town. Lucky you.

gryp

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 6:06 pm

bigdeal wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

and I also dont think tthat the mother who posted about lubavitch NEVEr mentioning Gehenom is right either. There is a happy medium of chinuch and sometimes it can be a TEACHEr and not the SCHOOLS views ( in that case that can be discussed...)

Since you are in favor of a happy medium, do you tell your kids that they'll go to Gehinnom if they don't follow the Torah?

Does anyone here tell that to their kids? We keep Shabbos so we don't go to Gehinnom. We eat kosher so we don't go to Gehinnom. We are tznius so we don't go to Gehinnom. Anyone here do that?

HEY
I said theres a happy medium
everyone need to know the concept of an avera and its reprecussions- at times we serve Hashem out of love and at times its out of FEAR ( like loshon hara- big temptation- but knowing Im gonna burn for that might help make it a lttle easier to keep quiet...) Yes, a happy medium... but you cant go around telling your kids that everything is about simcha- because sometimes they might trangress and be blinded by the simcha... so yea sometimes its outta love and sometimes outta fear....

Happy medium? Do you even do that once to a child? Don't brush your hair on Shabbos or you'll go to Gehinnom. Would you even say that once to one of your children and consider that chinuch?

Of course there is schar and onesh, and Ahavas Hashem and Yiras Hashem. That doesn't mean using Gehinnom as a threat. Gehinnom IS a cleansing in a way that the Neshama suffers. Do we know what it means to actually "burn?" I don't think so. So why use it as a threat. And what about Gehinnom shel Sheleg? I don't think any burning goes on there.

We learn about 613 strands of a rope which binds us to Hashem and an aveirah weakens a strand.
A punishment we do learn about is Kareis, for a person who eats Chometz on Pesach, for example.
Once we are older we learn about other things, like I mentioned Kaf HaKelah and Chibbut Hakever, which are also cleansing processes but suffering and painful for the Neshama. We are told that saying Psukim and Mishnayos can help us avoid these.

We simply learn that we want to be connected to Hashem, and this is what a Mitzvah accomplishes (Mitzvah m'lashon tzavsa v'chibbur), and how sad it is when a Yid's connection to Hashem is weakened. And that the more one chooses to do aveiros, the harder it may be for him to do mitzvos or to fix what he did.

amother

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 6:44 pm

In our high school, we had a teacher who did the whole match thing. Apparently this is frequently done. The teacher brings in a match and challenges students to try holding their pinky finger to it. He then went on and on about how imagine the pain for one finger and then the whole hand and then the whole arm and then the whole body and then for a minute, for an hour, for a day, for eternity.

We all thought he was nuts. But I'm sure he made an impression on some kids.

chaylizi

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 6:47 pm

too bad gold 21. I went to a small school (maybe 120 girls in the whole high school). and I have a really special relationship with my principal and many of my teachers. the school system as a whole is like one big family. for instance: I had a baby last year & I got a letter from the director/dean saying mazel tov & it's so nice to share in the simchos of alumni- & my parents got a letter too. I guess I'm just a real out of towner who doesn't know how in town works at all.

chaylizi

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 6:53 pm

ok seriously people- whatever happened to the es pas nisht point of view? You can't do x because it's beneath you. You can't put x in your yearbook, beacause one day you'll be really embarrassed. Bais Yaakov girls can't/shouldn't/don't do that. You know- the whole kol kvudah bas melech pnimah thing? Really did I go to school on the moon? Is there no positive reinforcement to give our children?

bigdeal

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 8:16 pm

I find that ppl here will just say what they want to- but Ill go ahead

GR- as far as the happy medium I was referring to your "gehenom threats" NO that is NOT a happy medium!!!!!! ( DUH)

Chanaroch- I agree

But like I said- its unfair to generalize the BY system....people are so quick to knock , take amoment and think of the GOOd teachers you had- and at least something good came from this- you will RAISE YOUR children better...... or in the way you think is better.......

Imaonwheels

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 8:54 pm

Gehinom for younger children does not need a graphic depiction and does not have to be mentioned stam. I also told my kids in an age appropriate way that HaShem is hurt when we do something against the Torah because he made everything especially for us and we shouldn't break the rules. Even now that I have teenagers my stress is that HaShem's rules are the absolute best thing for us and many of the bad things we experience can be traced to us not trusting Him.

BTW, burning for eternity is a non Jewish concept.

mimivan

Mon, Mar 24 2008, 8:58 pm

My son and I are starting to read Chumash now from the beginning and I have to say, what he is reading is strong enough stuff without talking about Gehinnom...throwing out Adam and Chava from Gan Eden and Kayin's punishment were enough to cause him to see that G-d means business...and we haven't even gotten to the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah....

I keep reminding him, again and again, that G-d loves us, he created us and created the world, and we must follow his rules.

TzenaRena

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 4:41 am

I'm going to agree with Atali. Schar V'Onesh are the 13 Ikarim. Children whould be taught about Olam HaBah (it's one of the 12 Pesukkim!), and schar and onesh in Olam haBah - Gan Eden and Gehinnom.

One of the most fascinating stories in the Sefer HaToldos of the Baal HaTanya is how he - the Alter Rebbe - exposed the Maskil known as Shimon HaKofer. He came into Yechidus impersonated as a melamed, to spy on the leader of the Chassidim, and plan his strategy for ensnaring the youth of the Chassidim around that.

The Alter Rebbe asked him: How do you teach the verse: "Vayecherad Yitzchak " (Bereishis 27:33)- and Yitzchak trembled.

Replied Shimon: I teach it according to the first translation. (Yitzchok was astonished). Asked the Alter Rebbe: And why do you not teach it according to Rashi's second explanation from the Medrash also? (He saw Gehinnom open underneath him)

answered Shimon: I don't hold that one should trouble the tender minds with Aggadot in general, especially scary things like Gehinnom, and even more so, the child will question, how is it that this big, wide Gehinomm which is flaming for over five thousand, five hundred and fifty five years (ed: the current year then ), should enter Yitzchok's chamber and both he and Esav remained alive, and not even their clothes got singed!

The Alter Rebbe persisted: How does the Medrash know that he saw Gehinnom opened up underneath him?

Shimon was silent - for he couldn't answer, and thought to himself: "is this the first (only) nonsensical saying amongst all others of the Medrash and Talmud?"

When the Alter Rebbe saw that he was not answering, he said: "When Esav enters Yitzchok's room, and Yitzchok asks him who are you, and Esav answers his father "I am your firstborn son Esav, which is false because hasn't he already sold the bechorah to Yaakov in a complete, legal sale, and Yitzchok knows this - Yitzchok trembled a great trembling at the falsehood that Esav told, and that he violated the laws of the Torah - from this he trembled a great trembling, and since he is a liar, therefore the Gehinom is open for him underneath.

Then the Alter Rebbe leaned on his arms, then lifted his head.....and gazed at Shimon and said:

When a person comes from Vilna, and says he is from Zamut, when he passes children to the Molech of the Haskalah, and he claims that he is a melamed -- the Gehinnom is open underneath him; how many souls have you destroyed, and you persist in your rebellion, you have been caught by minus (heresy), and there is no return from there.

Shimon made a hurried retreat from the Yechidus room, planing to leave to his inn and from there, the town, before he would be stretched out on the table, pants down and receive a spanking of the kind that a pupil from his teacher. However the Chassidim spotted him and pulled him over to the shul in the courtyard to dance with him in the "Yechidus dance" ...After which he left town as soon as he could.

(The entire story is from Shimon's own written account, which was later found and confiscated by the Chassidim.)

TzenaRena

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 4:46 am

That is to say, it's a red light, warning signal when we aren't "comfortable" telling children that Gehinomm exists, that there is schar v'onesh.

In our previous story, that characterized someone who was in fact an apikoros.

Mevater

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 5:57 am

TzenaRena wrote:

It's also a red light for turning in the teacher to an insane assylum for saying things like BRUSH NOW, BURN LATER. Has this teacher had permission from G-d to say that? Does she have in her posession a list for specific Onshim for specific Aveiros? Does she have the right from Hashem to teach Yiddishkeit with these tactics?

chaylizi

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 6:04 am

I have to say that I agree with letsbehonest. Just because it is an imperative to teach our children about sechar v'onesh (which I never disagreed with) doesn't mean our teachers have to teach our precious children that they will burn if they do x. Isn't it a tactic of the yetzer hara for someone to say to themselves- I'm so bad already, it won't help me to fix anything. Which one of us wants our children to become depressed about how bad they are at school age, so that they think nothing I can do will help- I'm going to gehinnom anyway. I'm sorry I maintain there is a better way.

gold21

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 6:13 am

Quote:

take amoment and think of the GOOd teachers you had- and at least something good came from this- you will RAISE YOUR children better......

first of all, I think its great that you have a positive outlook.
second of all, I cannot think of one good teacher that affected the way I live my life. there were definitely some good teachers that were nice people and had good hashkafos (and a viable IQ), and I respected that, but none of them impacted my life in any way that I can think of. I am serious. I am one of those people in this world that have a strong set of values and my own set of beliefs and I tend to do my own thing since I really just have my own style. I dont follow what other people thing is right, and I therefore dont get that affected by what teachers say. If I followed my teachers, I would have my dh in kollel, and I would be uhappy. So.........

gryp

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 6:28 am

Tzena, no one said to deny or dismiss the topic of gehinnom, just not to use it as a threat for doing an aveirah.
We teach our children to say in Brachos every morning, "U'midinah Shel Gehinnom," and while I had no idea what that was when I was a kid and saying it every day, it's not something that's completely ignored. We also wouldn't skip over that Rashi in Chumash.
Gehinnom is a real concept, of course, but not a substantial threat to a child who is learning about what to do and what not to do.

amother

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 6:39 am

No one is denying the concept of Gehenom.

BUT, being that BYOBP is a predominantly Litvish school, I'd like to hear one Lakewood Rosh Yeshiva approve of teaching with the above mentioned comments. I don't think it would ever happen. Probably not a single Chassidishe Rebbe would approve either, for that matter. These comments come from deranged, control freak, frightening, egotistical, love to be authority figure teachers. I think Rabbi Ehrenreich would NOT be impressed with those quotes.

Case closed.

Fox

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 7:44 am

amother wrote:

These comments come from deranged, control freak, frightening, egotistical, love to be authority figure teachers.

While we can debate the nature, duration, and manifestations of Gehinnom, I have a feeling that is not the underlying problem.

I taught for over 15 years before changing fields, and I'm sure I said things that were . . . ill-considered, to put as positive a spin as possible on it. No teacher is perfect, and anyone who has put in considerable time in the classroom has (or should have!) a list of cringe-inducing memories.

That said, I am repeatedly appalled by the "educational approach" -- if you could call it that -- espoused by many of the teachers and administrators of my daughters' schools. Their primary concern seems to be administering endless tests (the only form of evaluation they are familiar with) and making sure the girls are as docile as possible.

The teachers and principals speak to the girls in a slow, condescending tone of voice that I wouldn't use to address a pet, and any girl who is unwilling or unable to fit their model is "in need of counseling." Of course, it's unclear what consitutes the "model" -- it certainly isn't tznius, middos tovos, chesed, or any other identifiably Jewish characteristic. It seems more related to being small, cute, feminine, and quiet in class. The majority of teachers are ignorant of their own role in classroom management and have no resources short of threats and punishments to keep a semblance of order.

Any parent who objects or even proposes a mild alternative is immediately branded as some sort of Montessori-embracing, do-your-own-thing, wacked-out weirdo. And then the whispers start: "Well, you know the father is a BT" . . . "What can you expect? The mother is a giyoress?" . . . "You know, I've always heard there were troubles in that family."

Obviously, the teachers and principals are not evil people. But there seems to be something seriously wrong in the way we are training and mentoring young teachers. Their over-reliance on iron-handed authority not only leads to the kind of hashkafic distortions that began this thread, but is rapidly turning our schools into places that are, at best, pretty unpleasant places, and, at worst, are breeding grounds for the rejection of yiddishkeit.

rosehill

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 8:15 am

As a general rule, what level of education/training do the fire-and-brimstone type teachers have?

amother

Tue, Mar 25 2008, 8:19 am

rosehill wrote:

As a general rule, what level of education/training do the fire-and-brimstone type teachers have?

Seminary, good grades, good reputation and most importantly PULL. In BYOBP you have a couple of families whose mothers daughters sisters are all employed there.

Page 3 of 3

Previous 1 2 3