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Forum
-> Announcements & Mazel Tovs
randomsoul
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:24 pm
heidi wrote: | I know this won't be a popular opinion, but BH this poor little girl's suffering is over.
I agree that the government overstepped to an absolutely terrifying degree. In fact, I'd be scared to live in England. You don't know what they might decide is legal next. |
coming from someone who lost a sibling, you should be ashamed to have posted this. there is always hope while person is alive. saying such a thing will never comfort anyone.
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BH Yom Yom
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:27 pm
BDE. Horrible.
ה׳ ינקום דמה.
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blessedflower
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:28 pm
SYA wrote: | They removed life support and she was able to breathe on her own for 90 minutes.
Hashem should avenge her death on all those who were involved in her murder. | yes. That itself was so sad. I had that little hope that maybe she will continue breathing
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flowerpower
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:28 pm
Bde!
England will pay for this- hashem is the ultimate judge and he will take care of them already.
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doodlesmom
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:33 pm
heidi wrote: | I know this won't be a popular opinion, but BH this poor little girl's suffering is over.
I agree that the government overstepped to an absolutely terrifying degree. In fact, I'd be scared to live in England. You don't know what they might decide is legal next. |
While it’s terrible to hear, I guess Hashem agreed that this girls suffering should be over, since otherwise she would have been alive now.
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Geulanow
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:43 pm
Boruch dayan ha'emes. Too sad.
The sad thing is that this is a world-wide problem - not just hospitals taking people off of machines but hospitals having "ethics" committees that decide whether it is ethical to let a person live . See this article at the last 2 doctors interviewed:
https://hamodia.com/frominyan/.....eak/.
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Chickensoupprof
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:48 pm
doodlesmom wrote: | While it’s terrible to hear, I guess Hashem agreed that this girls suffering should be over, since otherwise she would have been alive now. |
I agree with this. ☝️ However it’s terrible sad news but the nis that we davened for didnt happen. That’s why we should now be tested that Hashem is and does good. If He would Alta let live it would have happened.
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WaterKissed
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:51 pm
heidi wrote: | I know this won't be a popular opinion, but BH this poor little girl's suffering is over.
I agree that the government overstepped to an absolutely terrifying degree. In fact, I'd be scared to live in England. You don't know what they might decide is legal next. |
You know, I had the same opinion as you, and when I shared that with my husband he told me that sefarim say that as long as any yid is alive they have a tafkid. And that another yid or ten or a hundred would be mechiyuv to be mechalel shabbos to save her life if necessary. So no, I don't understand, and it seemed like suffering, but Torah and our rabbis know better.
Last edited by WaterKissed on Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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torquoise
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 5:58 pm
WaterKissed wrote: | You know, I had the same opinion as you, and when I shared that with my husband he told that sefarim say that as long as any yid is alive they have a tafkid. And that another yid or ten or a hundred would be mechiyuv to be mechalel shabbos to save her life if necessary. So no, I don't understand, and it seemed like suffering, but Torah and our rabbis know better. |
This answer is beautiful. So much said in so few words.
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dankbar
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:12 pm
Even when scans show that someone is brain dead, miracles can happen & a person can wake up or respond if Hashem wills.
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SixOfWands
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:19 pm
WaterKissed wrote: | You know, I had the same opinion as you, and when I shared that with my husband he told that sefarim say that as long as any yid is alive they have a tafkid. And that another yid or ten or a hundred would be mechiyuv to be mechalel shabbos to save her life if necessary. So no, I don't understand, and it seemed like suffering, but Torah and our rabbis know better. |
Having a tafkid doesn't mean that she wasn't suffering. AIUI, she was. She was she unable to breathe, eat or drink without medical support. British doctors said she was in constant pain.
You don't have to think that she had no tafkid to feel terrible about that.
You don't have to agree with the decision not to allow her parents to seek treatment abroad to feel terrible about that.
You don't have to agree with the decision not to allow her to die at home to feel terrible about that.
In fact, you're allowed to think its all horrible.
It is incomprehensible that a child suffered this type of injury, and had to suffer this way. Even if that was her "tafkid," I don't have to like it, or agree with it.
It is incomprehensible that her parents were not given the right to try experimental treatment abroad, at their own cost, even if there were no chance it would work.
It is incomprehensible that her parents and family were not given permission to bring her home.
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Amelia Bedelia
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:30 pm
doodlesmom wrote: | While it’s terrible to hear, I guess Hashem agreed that this girls suffering should be over, since otherwise she would have been alive now. |
Based on what I read, she had no sensation of pain due to the massive brain injury
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polka dots
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:46 pm
so heartbreaking!
When people lead a lifestyle where all they do is see how much physical pleasure they can derive from living, than when they see a body like Alta's they render it useless. They see her limits, and think of her as confined and they want to bring her peace. How sad to live such a simple, limited life.
But when we live with the Torah we understand that a body is just a vessel for our neshama to fulfill its tafkid. No one is just hanging out in planet earth for no reason. A neshama has infinite value! Life itself is sacred, every minute is cherished. Because we are here to do a mission! Even if we don't know what our mission is, Hashem placed us where we are for a reason. Whether it is to better yourself or maybe to inspire the people around you. How lucky are we to live every day with meaning. Therefore we cherish life for life itself. We value bringing in more children into this world, regardless of how successful they will be. We respect our elders, no matter if they are still accomplishing many physical tasks, and we preserve life even for those very ill. Alta didn't need to stay alive so she can get a treatment that can maybe help her. We don't end a life even if we know they won't get better, because life itself is so precious.
My wish and hope for this judge is to have Alzheimers and let the people around him abandon him to roam the streets and fend for himself because he doesnt have quality of life left.
sorry for this rant, I just had to let it out!
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jkl
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:52 pm
polka dots wrote: | so heartbreaking!
When people lead a lifestyle where all they do is see how much physical pleasure they can derive from living, than when they see a body like Alta's they render it useless. They see her limits, and think of her as confined and they want to bring her peace. How sad to live such a simple, limited life.
But when we live with the Torah we understand that a body is just a vessel for our neshama to fulfill its tafkid. No one is just hanging out in planet earth for no reason. A neshama has infinite value! Life itself is sacred, every minute is cherished. Because we are here to do a mission! Even if we don't know what our mission is, Hashem placed us where we are for a reason. Whether it is to better yourself or maybe to inspire the people around you. How lucky are we to live every day with meaning. Therefore we cherish life for life itself. We value bringing in more children into this world, regardless of how successful they will be. We respect our elders, no matter if they are still accomplishing many physical tasks, and we preserve life even for those very ill. Alta didn't need to stay alive so she can get a treatment that can maybe help her. We don't end a life even if we know they won't get better, because life itself is so precious.
My wish and hope for this judge is to have Alzheimers and let the people around him abandon him to roam the streets and fend for himself because he doesnt have quality of life left.
sorry for this rant, I just had to let it out! |
On a similar note though, a person only dies if Hashem decreed it so. Don't we have to accept here that this is Hashem's will? We can never truly understand why her death had to come by this manner, but doesn't this mean that she had completed her tafkid in this world?
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octopus
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:55 pm
Im so saddened!! Those poor parents!!
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polka dots
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 6:58 pm
jkl wrote: | On a similar note though, a person only dies if Hashem decreed it so. Don't we have to accept here that this is Hashem's will? We can never truly understand why her death had to come by this manner, but doesn't this mean that she had completed her tafkid in this world? |
I'm no rebbetzin to answer this, just my thoughts.
Nobody can touch anyone without Hashems will so obviously it was meant to be. But bad things happen through bad people and good things are brought about through good people.
By a terrorist attack, wouldn't you be furious at the bad people even though it is Hashems will?
I feel like I'm double sad. Firstly for the loss of Alta and for her family and aquaintences.
I also feel like this case marked a very significant point in our times. It is scary what can happen next. If the government can take control over such a decisions... If a child is not considered religious if they didn't choose to be religious... If this is what a democratic country can rule in a civilized court... than we are heading for trouble. It is a really sad day
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Laiya
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 7:05 pm
SixOfWands wrote: | Having a tafkid doesn't mean that she wasn't suffering. AIUI, she was. She was she unable to breathe, eat or drink without medical support. British doctors said she was in constant pain. |
The British doctors have lost all credibility.
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jkl
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 7:07 pm
polka dots wrote: | .
I also feel like this case marked a very significant point in our times. It is scary what can happen next. If the government can take control over such a decisions... If a child is not considered religious if they didn't choose to be religious... If this is what a democratic country can rule in a civilized court... than we are heading for trouble. It is a really sad day |
It's not so much democracy, it's rather a socialized program. This is socialized medicine, and this case highlights exactly what the problem is with it. It is really important that we all grasp this, because the US is heading towards that direction and we need to understand the ramifications of it. True, socialized healthcare is cheaper and is more accessible to all, but at what cost? There's already the underpinnings of this with the elderly population. In an increasing amount of cases, they talk about palliative care and making the patient comfortable instead of considering treatment. I'm not talking about terminal cases, I'm talking about cases in where the patient has a decent chance of a good outcome. They do it in a subtle manner, and often the patient doesn't realize what exactly is going on. I don't see how yidden can be supportive of any program where we relinquish control to this degree.
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justmarried:)
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 7:10 pm
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#BestBubby
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Mon, Oct 18 2021, 8:01 pm
Socialized Medicine = Murder of Sick Children and Old Sick People.
Nothing is "Free" - you pay for it with your taxes - and with your LIFE itself!
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