Finance shaming | Imamother

SweetMouse

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 1:41 am

amother Kiwi wrote:

Speak to Naftoli Horowitz about it. He is an expert in this field and does not agree at all with what you’re saying.

Neither do I. You can certainly be generous to others without being ostentatious.

I have never heard of Naftoli Horowitz. I am happy to look him up if you provide me with more information about what he does and what his perspective/philosophy is regarding this topic.

I'm glad we agree to disagree! Wink

I grew up in a neighborhood you'd likely call "ostentatious". My family was the exception to the rule (long story how we ended up there and why my parents chose to stay) and it didn't bother us one bit. We are confident in who we are and recognize that other people's money and lifestyles only effect us as much as we allow it to do so. My parents' home is much simpler than any other in the neighborhood, they drive simple, functional cars, make very basic simchas, rarely take a vacation, and wear regular no name clothing. We have close relationships with some of the neighbors and very cordial relationships with the rest (as most do in most neighborhoods).

In my neighborhood of origin, people live in large, comfortable homes, drive luxurious cars, make lavish simchas, go on exotic vacations, and dress to the nines. And they also host very successful fundraisers for myriads of organizations and people in need every night, give generously of their homes, resources and time, and take care of many public and private community needs with grace and generosity.

I truly respect these people, even though my personal values are somewhat different. They are doing their best with the tools and personalities Hashem gave them.

Yes, there are those wealthy individuals who live simply and give generously. They should be admired, too. But not everyone is cut out to live that way.

amother

Pear

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 2:21 am

amother Cognac wrote:

No one is saying it but really a huge difference in background countries is stinginess vs. enjoying what you have.

I take exception to this.
It's not stinginess. It's about living with accountability. You'll see it in every aspect of life not only in finances. It's about focusing on priorities and putting temporary pleasures to one side.

I don't think people would appreciate it if someone posted: It's about frugality vs. splurging whenever you can.

Just like people who enjoy life get annoyed when people accuse them of overspending, people who are deliberately measured about their finances do not appreciate being called stingy.

My parents are likely wealthier than most people posting here. You'd never know it from outside. They live with little gashmiyus and give 40% of their income to tzedaka. It's not for everyone, but it's not being stingy. It's prioritizing some things over others.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:22 am

amother Pear wrote:

1. Apart from Chazal setting standards in certain things, it is also clearly written that if Hashem blessed you with financial abundance, it is ungrateful not to use it. A rich person is SUPPOSED to use the money they've been given.
2. Since when does what other people spend reflect on my life? I happen to be in the struggling sector right now. $200 on shoes isn't even something I dream about. But what has someone else's shoes got to do with me? Let them enjoy!
3. A person's confidence should not be so fragile that hearing that someone else is doing well makes them bitter and angry. If wearing $200 shoes is "flaunting", who decided that? You did! By taking it personally! They didn't buy them to flaunt. They bought them to wear. You are the one who is taking it personally.
4. It's not a middah per se to live simply. It's a value that some have and some don't have. But you can't tell someone else to work on a value. If they don't value it, they don't. It isn't maala or a chisaron.
5. When Chazal write not to be menaker einayim ie. not to make other people jealous, it's talking about showing wealth for the sake of showing wealth. If it is for a practical purpose (those shoes are more comfortable, I like a cleaner house, healthier food) then it absolutely does not apply.

What I find hard to grasp is people whose happiness depends on what other people do. You can never be happy that way. If your situation makes you unhappy and you can't do anything about it, you need to turn to HKBH and work on changing your mindset. But what other people spend is not coming out of your cheshbon. HKBH has enough money for everyone.

Regarding point number 5. Buying super luxury items and wearing or driving multiple of them etc is definitely showing wealth for the sake of wealth.

amother

Cognac

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:28 am

amother Pear wrote:

I see so many examples here of stinginess and people call it frugal. And I get that stingy people don’t necessarily see their own stinginess. Don’t conflate the two. And I grew up super rich but no one knew because we didn’t flaunt it. So I’m hyper aware of the differences between simple, frugal and stingy. And many people from certain countries are stingy.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:30 am

amother Cognac wrote:

No it’s not for the sole sake of showing off. They all are more comfortable/ have extra features/ are better. Why should someone have to lose out because you are jealous? They can absolutely use the better products and enjoy the use of them.

What is more comfortable or better between a Louis Vuitton bag with the logo all over vs a bag the same price or double from The Row with no logos visible?
Paired with flats that say “Fendi” vs a pair of jimmy Choo flats with no logo?

amother

Cognac

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:35 am

amother Kiwi wrote:

Every item feels different. One person might find one flat more comfortable than the other. Or one was more convenient to buy. The fact you need an explanation and can’t fathom what goes into these choices shows you don’t relate to this world. What they don’t have to do is make cheshbonos like I won’t buy this because Rochel down the street is too jealous for me to spend my money the way that works best for me.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:37 am

amother Cognac wrote:

You can order jimmy choos and fendi flats from the same Bloomingdales app. There is no more effort involved.
Don’t tell me you can find any other comfortable thousand pair of shoes besides ones that say the brand name.

amother

Cognac

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:43 am

amother Kiwi wrote:

You can even hire a personal shopper to find beautiful quality items with no visible logos. The fact that people are getting worked up bec they must be allowed to wear head to toe designer AND post their business class trips to Dubai shows me it’s about what other people think of them rather than enjoying it to be more comfortable.

The fact you think someone should spend this much time focusing on this specific area, logos, because it makes you feel jealous, is already asking too much of other people. Why are you so busy looking at logos and making calculations of the costs? Why did you even check what they cost? If you can’t afford it, it should all be the same to you and you shouldn’t really be so aware of the differences. I have a piece of advice for you, stop being obsessed with brands it will make your life happier. I’m just hearing more and more about how you need to work on jealousy and judgement of others.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 7:52 am

amother Cognac wrote:

I’m hearing more and more about how you have no room in your heart to try to think about it from another perspective.

I could afford *some* of things things (not all) but with the exception of watches, which for some reason you cannot find without a logo, I choose items without any visible logos because I know what it’s like to feel like everyone else can afford x but me.

Yes I spend time on it because I care about other people’s feelings and the feelings of the girls in my daughther’s class.

amother

Cognac

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:02 am

amother Kiwi wrote:

You have no idea how I live or what I have the means for and that’s a lot to assumptions just because I disagreed with you. And I feel people who don’t stop berating others for their spending are hurting more people than those random people who are just spending on themselves.

And about children that’s a great age to start teaching about being happy with what you have. That’s also on the parents to stop being so vocal shout how jealous they are. They are setting bad examples.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:04 am

amother Cognac wrote:

Once again, poor and middle class people are held to a different standard. You make interesting assumptions about me but the minute I make an assumption about you, you complain.

Only rich people are perfect and should not be called out for anything, poor and middle class are just jealous bitter people who need to learn to deal with their feelings.

amother

NeonYellow

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:07 am

amother Pear wrote:

My parents could definitely be friends with your parents! Their house is so simple they haven't redecorated in over 20 years. My mom owns a ring and that's it. And you know what she doesn't want or need more. Nobody would have any idea that they're even close to wealthy. And they do help their kids too they're not the kind of people that just help for the rest of the world and leave their kids to struggle. And they have definitely taught me that giving is what brings to happiness. My husband and I are on our own have had her ups and downs with finances. Right now is up but we are saving and still making sure to give at least 10% in fact we're trying to give a little bit more than that. We still have young kids and our business is the kind that is a roller coaster so we really have to say for the times that might not be as good. We also make super simple simchas.Self catered bris, bar and mitzvah in the house. Most of my friends are people that are struggling and I really try to never flaunt what I have. I never post on social media well sometimes I'm tempted to do so. It is nice to be able to share happiness especially with family lives far away and doesn't even know that we took a vacation. I can't imagine being friends with people that are super wealthy and flaunt it because we are the total opposite of that. I'm sure no one has any idea the kind of money we are making. And I really hope that it can stay that way because otherwise I might lose friends. I try to be beyond sensitive and help my friends where they don't even know. Like try to give through an organization I think is to them so they never know that it was their friend that was helping them. In fact sometimes I wonder what they think about me since they do know that we go on vacation talking about my few closest friends. They don't know that I've helped them out financially. But I don't think they be grudge me because I know how we don't show off at all.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:07 am

SweetMouse wrote:

https://meaningfulminute.org/w.....e-37/

amother

Glitter

Thu, Jan 26 2023, 8:09 am

DustyDiamonds wrote:

Flip Flops, you make great points, and this deserves a spin-off.

Briefly:

When the wealthy curtail their spending (takanos, etc), they give far less charity.

A wealthy family spending $300 on dinner is not making a hundredth of a percent of a pin drop of a dent in their disposable income. And they typically ARE giving far more than just 10% of their income to charity.

When people have a mindset of abundance (NOT waste, there’s a HUGE difference!), they also give to charity abundantly, and earn more abundantly. People who have a scarcity mindset and pinch pennies typically are not very giving and also less likely to do well financially, as they’re scared to take the risks necessary to earn the big money.

Do you want the family that has $50 million in income to buy their toddler a $40 Target dress instead of a $200 Lakewood’s finest dress, so that they immediately give the $160 difference to charity to a poor seminary girl? It sounds nice, yet it doesn’t work that way in real life! They’re already giving hundreds of thousands of dollars on charity weekly!

Yes yes yes yes yes
This exactly!
People here are so bitter it’s incredible
If at any point, part of your thread is judgement or assumptions on someone else’s income or expenses, then you are the problem.