Do we daven for miracles

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amother

Butterscotch

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 11:20 am

amother OP wrote:

But they also don't.
And It gets tricky when there is all this talk about receiving miracles when sometimes they don't happen.

We need to believe it’s possible but Hashem usually hides under teva so even though He can do anything we can’t expect it. My heart breaks for whatever you or your loved one is going through. I wish you do, in fact, get a miracle!

jflower

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 11:32 am

amother Sage wrote:

The Mishna talks about tefilas shav.
הצועק לשעבר, הרי זו תפילת שוא.

כיצד?

היתה אשתו מעברת, ואמר, יהי רצון שתלד אשתי זכר, הרי זו תפילת שוא.

היה בא בדרך ושמע קול צוחה בעיר, ואמר, יהי רצון שלא יהיו אלו בני ביתי, הרי זו תפילת שוא

Roughly translated: Someone who cries about something that has already taken place, it is a tefila in vain. What does this look like? Someone whose wife is pregnant (after first 40 days, Bartenura) and he says Please let it be your will that my wife should have a boy, it is a tefila in vain. If someone was on a journey and he hears screaming in the town and says "Please let it be Your will that that is not members of my household, that is a tefila in vain."

If there is even a small hope, it is fine to daven but if it is clear that something has already happened, you shouldn't daven for it to change.

I had a scan yesterday - the baby stopped growing a month ago and no heartbeat. I asked the Rav and he said until we do a second scan, we can still daven. After it has been confirmed by another doctor, we don't daven.

I don't know what to say about all these miracle things.

Sage, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I don't know what to say to make this easier for you but I just hope that you and your husband are able to get through this somehow. Hugs.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 11:38 am

amother OP wrote:

What about asking for it for someone else. We have no idea what they deserve.

Again, maybe it seems like an obvious miracle because we are limited. We can ask and leave it to Hashem to orchestrate it in an appropriate way.

And I would totally err on the side of asking for an overt miracle if it means giving chizuk to someone else.

amother

Rainbow

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 12:26 pm

Rabbi Shimon Spitzer has amazing ongoing shiurim on Bitachon. It's worthwhile listening to if you have time.

https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....55271

amother

Hawthorn

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 12:59 pm

I think what's confusing people here is the definition of miracle. If you mean a physical impossibility eg) a dead person coming back to life, then no we don't daven for that.
If you mean you want something very unlikely and astonishing to happen, then sure.

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 1:09 pm

amother Rainbow wrote:

Rabbi Shimon Spitzer has amazing ongoing shiurim on Bitachon. It's worthwhile listening to if you have time.

https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....55271

Thanks! I am actually very very immersed in bitachon it has changed my life and I keep drawing on it again and again and learning it and living it daily. So that's why I was surprised when my Rav said no

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 1:11 pm

amother Hawthorn wrote:

I can't get into specifics but it's complex

amother

Hawthorn

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 1:18 pm

amother OP wrote:

I can't get into specifics but it's complex

You said your rav said not to daven in this case, so it sounds like it falls in the impossible category- we don't ask Hashem to change existing irreversible facts.
When I'm unsure what I can daven for, I stick to general prayer like this- Hashem please make this baby be as healthy as possible and not suffer etc..
Sending you so many hugs.

As someone mentioned earlier, it's so important to understand that having strong emunah doesn't mean I trust Hashem will make a miracle, rather- I trust that everything comes from my loving Father. I think a lot of emunah fallout comes from expecting miracles and being told amazing stories of wondrous miracles.

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 1:21 pm

amother Hawthorn wrote:

Right exactly this! I want to believe that Hashem can do a miracle and ask for it, but not expect it. Ask only because I know my asking can actually change things, but ultimately it's Hashem who is in charge.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 1:26 pm

It could be that your rav is saying that focusing too much on davening takes away from the menucha of living in this moment, doing what the ratzon Hashem is for you now. Does that make sense?

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 1:31 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

It could be that your rav is saying that focusing too much on davening takes away from the menucha of living in this moment, doing what the ratzon Hashem is for you now. Does that make sense?

No he told me very specifically daven for one of aspect of it but not the other. (So like for the person to feel comfort, but not a miracle- for example ).

amother

SandyBrown

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 1:57 pm

amother Butterscotch wrote:

Speaking of miracles. They do happen!
https://vinnews.com/2023/06/12.....gate/

I don't think this is a miracle. She wasn't dead.

A miracle would be had they buried her and she would have shown up at the supermarket the next day. Or someone who lost a limb has it grow back.

There's a difference between something that is unlikely and something that is miracle.

If c'vs a person has a condition that only 1 on 1000 survive from. If that person survives is it a miracle? I don't think so. That's the teva hashem created.

A miracle would be if a woman who didn't have relations gets pregnant. Hashem didn't put that teva into the world at all. So if it happens it's a miracle. Obviously I'm not including medical procedures to assist in pregnancy.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 2:24 pm

salt wrote:

I think there is a difference between davening that someone who is terminally ill (chas veshalom) will miraculously get better, or davening that tomorrow morning I will wake up and my house will be double in size.

The former, we can daven for, the latter, there is no point.

Not correct there is a certain point in illness that one may no longer daven for them to get better like when one is brain dead and on life support R Shlomo Miller says you can’t Daven for a Refuah because according to nature it’s not possible and we can’t daven for miracles. Furthermore I heard a shiur from R Reisman on this topic and he said your davening for them after a certain point can actually prolong their pain if even for a minute it is prolonged by your davening you can’t do that and it’s assur to Daven for then to get better from that aspect as well. You still can Daven but what you Daven for is the issue. You can Daven got the person not to be in so much pain, Daven for HaShem to alleviate their fears, and at very end Daven for neshama to have easy, smooth transition.
Wether you’re talking about illness or something else you are not allowed fo Daven for a miracle that according to nature is not possible to occur. What you can Daven for is that HaShem gives you the ability to accept and deal with issue appropriately, that HaShem guides you and sends you the right shalichim to help you and your kids or whoever else would be affected manage it well…. But can’t Daven for the situation to change if according to nature not possible. Instead Daven for HaShem to help you manage and navigate the situation properly as that is very possible according to nature

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 2:48 pm

amother OP wrote:

What about asking for it for someone else. We have no idea what they deserve.

It’s not about deserving it, it’s about if it’s possible according to nature. You can’t daven for something that is not possible according to nature. If someone is at the point of a goses which means they are departing to the next world they are half here and half there it is not possible according to nature that they won’t die. Davening for them not to die at that point, can cause them significant pain and it won’t stop them from dying because it’s not medically possible to live at that point.
You also have to be careful and know what is medically impossible and what is not. My dr had told me it’s virtually impossible for me to get pregnant and had recommended laparoscopic surgery as first step. For some strange reason I decided to take a pregnancy test day before my scheduled surgery and to my great surprise and relief I was pregnant (imagine if I didn’t take the test and went for surgery they would have cut right through the baby!). I obviously called the dr ti tell him and cancel my surgery and said to him “I thought you said it’s impossible for me to get pregnant “ the drs response to me was “I said VIRTUALLY impossible, not impossible lol!) but as I said , laparoscopic surgery was seen as First STEP (to determine ifI had endometriosis ) there was a plan for further steps after that if that wasn’t the issue. There is no way to determine endometriosis before doing surgery so it is done based on an “Educated guess” this drs guess was wrong in my case . That is not a miracle as there was never any solid evidence I couldn’t get pregnant it was drs guess, that was wrong.
When my mothers a”h lungs were 99.9% full with fluid it was impossible she could live that’s not an “educated guess” that’s a fact in nature and therefore can’t Daven for a Refuah.

Ironically I got pregnant once I had actuality Stopped davening to get pregnant and was at a place of acceptance of Hashems will. I remember thinking I had always said I want as many kids as HaShem gives me (assuming that would be alot) but I got to a point of realizing the same is true if HaShem only deems me to have one child (I had secondary infertility….) once I full heartedly accepted that and started thinking about what does HaShem want from me if not to raise a large family and actually took a job teaching and decided that is how I will serve HaShem that is when I got pregnant. I stopped davening to GET pregnant, started davening that whatever is best for me should occur and HaShem should help me accept Hashems will and guide me in what HaShem does want from me. When I internalized that and fully accepted and was at peace with not having more kids that’s when I did. But again that wasn’t a miracle according to nature that was drs wrong attempts of understanding….

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 2:52 pm

amother OP wrote:

So it's something medical. And the Rav said not to daven to make it better and I'm confused.

Please listen to your Rav. If you want more clarity then please question him as to why not , do not ask random women on imamother very often Rabbanim have specific reasons and understand what the average women on this forum does not (no offense anyone I’m including myself in that lack of understanding). Or it is possible that he was saying it as a general rule which is accurate you are not allowed to Daven for an open obvious miracle. If you are perturbed by his response call him back and tell him you are having a hard time understanding and ask him if there is a specific reason he is telling you not to Daven or he is just telling you the basic Halacha of not allowed to Daven for a open miracle - which is correct.

Thisisnotmyreal

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 2:56 pm

https://drive.google.com/file/.....vesdk

Op please watch this.

amother

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 3:07 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ds7dySfRcAONGFxqHYsX0inSnndwwMxu/view?usp=drivesdk

Op please watch this.

I'm sorry I really hate these miracle stories. Maybe my friend won't have a miracle. Then what do we do with someone else's miracle- just makes the pain deeper.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 3:27 pm

amother OP wrote:

So it's something medical. And the Rav said not to daven to make it better and I'm confused.

Daven for acceptance and strength to deal with the medical issue. Daven it shouldn’t be difficult, Daven it shouldn’t be painful, Daven for best outcome within the laws of nature, Daven for all you need to manage with the medical condition…. Aside from the fact we can’t Daven ti HaShem to perform an open miracle and defy the laws of nature it’s not healthy to psychologically . If it is not possible to change the situation within the laws of nature it is better for you to come to terms with it, work on accepting it and focusing on what is within nature that you can do to make the situation more manageable as opposed to hoping and praying for a miracle. I know it’s hard and one of the stages of getting to acceptance is denial and hoping it will change. Its ok if that is where you are now but please know staying stuck in hoping for a miracle for too long won’t serve you well.
All the best . I daven you get the strength and courage to face this challenge and HaShem sends you all you need to manage it as best as possible. All my love

mom24b

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 3:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

Bitachon means trusting whatever HaShem chooses for you is ultimately for your good. Bitschon does not mean believing HaShem will do what you believe is good, it is a firm belief and acceptance in Hashems will.

Last edited by mom24b on Tue, Jun 13 2023, 3:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 3:32 pm

amother Butterscotch wrote:

Speaking of miracles. They do happen!
https://vinnews.com/2023/06/12.....gate/

They do happen but doesn’t mean you can Daven for one and is not healthy or recommended in hoping for one.

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