Do we daven for miracles

amother

Tulip

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 6:45 pm

I didn't read the entire thread but most of it, and I think the confusion comes because of a missing element.
Who defines the nature of a miracle?
I believe in great part it depends on our level of emuna. Let me explain.

There is a famous story in the guemara about the daughter of Rabbi Hanina Ben Dossa who realized before Shabbat they didn't have oil to light the candles. She turned to her father, Rabbi Hanina, who answered: "Whoever told the oil to burn shall tell the vinegar to burn" and so it was. They lit the Shabbat candles with vinegar.
You can understand this story in two ways which in the end comes out to the same conclusion:
1- Rabbi Hanina didn't see this as a miracle, his emuna was such that he understood perfectly that there is no teva (nature) but Hachem, and so Hachem can decree otherwise just as easily.
2 - to Rabbi Hanina all teva is a miracle orchestrared by Hachem and so what's one more miracle for Hachem?
His faith either way is what allowed the vinegar to burn.
Our emuna is a keli (a vessel) for our yeshua (salvation).

Someone pointed out already אין סומכים על הנס means we don't rely on a miracle, but we are allowed to pray for one and have faith in it.

One last thing we don't need to tell Hachem how to go about it. We ask for what we need or want and let Hachem do the rest. Sometimes what we believe requires a miracle has other solutions we didn't even think about that aren't as complicated. In short we need a certain outcome but the way we reach it shouldn't be what we pray for since Hachem has His ways.

Since we do not know your situation really and I respect your privacy it is hard to really answer the depth of your question. Perhaps it's worth asking your rav for more explanation.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 7:57 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

You are incorrect. The story of R Chanina Ben dosa is taught to illustrate the fact that what seemingly looks like nature is also the miraculous hand of HaShem. It is not used to Paskun Halacha lemaaseh and attempting to do so is completely wrong. There are clear categories of what is considered nature (hidden miracles) and what is considered open miracles that defy nature. It is brought down in Halacha you are very misguided to say otherwise. Even R Avigdor Miller who truly saw Hashems miraculous ways in an apple and in all aspects of nature. still followed the halachic guidelines of what is considered nature and also paskened we can not Daven for miracles eventhough he saw Hashems hands in all aspects of nature. Please don’t make things up that are completely incorrect. I don’t understand why you are contradicting her Rav. Your beliefs are just that - your misguided beliefs or misunderstanding of what you learnt. It is clearly NOT based on Torah/Halacha facts. OPs Ravs answer is. Nobody here should attempt to ever contradict or disagree with a psak that was given to someone . ESPECIALLY when you don’t even know the facts! Do you not realize how irresponsible that is ?!?
OP it seems to me you are using the word confused as you are trying to process the gravity and severity of the situation. When you heard your Rav say it is not possible for the person to get better, without an open miracle and therefore you aren’t allowed to Daven for it, the reality of that is too much to bear! Your mind automatically goes into denial and thinks - that’s not possible, I must still be able to Daven for her. There still has to be hope!!! Of course you feel this way! It’s only human and natural not to want to accept the reality of losing someone. I believe your confusion is not truly confusion but a step in your process of accepting and dealing with the devastating reality. To all posters there is no purpose in contradicting her Rav , purposeful responses would be one of support to OP in her pain helping her process and come to terms with the horrible reality which I believe is OPs true intent on posting here( even if only subconsciously). OP I am here for you. It is hard for me to know if my honesty is too harsh for you at this time as I don’t know you or how you process emotions. I apologize if my honesty is too much for you and is causing you pain. Please know that is not my intention in any way. I’m coming from a place of my own personal experience. My mother died when I was 19, I have 4 older siblings that were married and 2 little brothers (youngest was 5yrs old when she died). Each one of us dealt with the news of her illness differently. I’m a realist (some might say pessimist) but I chose to expect the worse and if it doesn’t happen I’ll be pleasantly surprised, but if it does happen I’m prepared. I had siblings that couldn’t accept the fact their mother could die. One sister told me she knows mommy is not going to die because why would HaShem make our mother have a healthy child at an older (not so common) age, only to take her away from mothering her. My response to her was “because HaShem wanted this neshama to be born and go through life without having a natural mother.” My sister’s attempt in believing her thinking was a show of Emuna, was actually her inability to come to terms with the grave reality. My siblings who did not come to terms with the reality missed out on valuable time and opportunity. I took lots of pictures, recorded conversations and had invaluable discussions as I was consciously aware to do all I could with whatever time I had left. Of course you are not ready to think like that yet and that’s normal. Even if and when you are I do realize hearing the reality can evoke negative emotions in you, even when you have come to acceptance. That was the case for me. I was very much aware my mother was going to die , but hearing it was still painful so I apologize from the bottom of my heart if my words caused you any pain. My intent is only out of love. My desire is to help you process and come to terms with the reality, so you can cherish the time you have and are not left with regret later on. You of course aren’t there yet. I suspect hearing your Rav telling you it’s at the point you can no longer Daven for a Refuah is a smack in the gut, but I believe also the beginning of you processing the reality. I therefore urge all those responding to OP , offer support in processing this horrible reality as opposed to disagreeing with her Rav (which is absurd and not helpful).
Hugs OP

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 8:11 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

Quote: "I know it’s hard and one of the stages of getting to acceptance is denial and hoping it will change. Its ok if that is where you are now but please know staying stuck in hoping for a miracle for too long won’t serve you well."

I disagree. As long as there is life there is hope. Once more you shouldn't RELY on miracles but have faith and do your utmost hishtadlus as long as possible. Tefilot, tzedaka and teshuva have annulled decrees and changed many outcomes. If I'm not mistaken it was Rav Pincus zt"l who would say it is the nature of the world to rely on tefila! We must have faith in the power Hachem gave us.
With that said we can't be defeated if we don't get the outcome we wanted. Acceptance once we can't change anything like after someone passes away is also emuna.
Know where to put your emuna at the right time

You can’t disagree with Halacha! You can’t disagree with OPs psak of her Rav , doing so is not only a show of your ignorance it is a brazen act of disrespect to Halacha and Rabbanim. You are twisting and mixing oranges and apples. I’m sure Rav Pincus did say it is the nature to rely on the power of tefilla . I am also Sure R Pincus did NOT say you can use tefilla to Daven for an open miracle! In fact I own shaarim bedima and will look it up later as I’m one thousand percent confident R Pincus nor any Rav (with even basic knowledge) would say you could Daven for an open miracle, because you can’t.
If you have lost multiple loved ones and want to disagree with me on being stuck on false hope not serving one well, then I suppose we can have that debate. I’m speaking from personal experience . If you are not, it is not wise to comment and advise on issues you have no experience with .

amother

Tulip

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 8:14 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

Before screaming you are incorrect re-read what I said because I clearly wrote one way of understanding is that all nature (teva) was a miracle to him. Besides I didn't say her rav was wrong but perhaps she needed more explaining from him especially since we are not sure whay she is talking about.
I am sorry for what you had to go through but I will maintain my opinion that I have learned from years of working on emuna and bitachon and asking tzadikim. As long as there is life there is hope and we are entitled to hold on to that hope with proper hishtadlus while still being able to accept if Hachem decrees otherwise in the end. This is real emuna. While I have the opportunity there is no dispair but if after all Hachem takes away the possibility than I accept that this is His will and He knows best. It doesn't mean I was wrong to believe all along. Emuna is trust in Hachem at all times not that Hachem will do your will.

amother

Tulip

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 8:28 pm

amother Mistyrose wrote:

How about we start with respecting each other? Your words are rude and disrespectful. They are not based on halacha and I have not undermined her rav's psak. You are coming from a place of pain and I really feel for you. I am sorry you've had such struggles. Yes I have also lost loved ones and it's very hard to deal with. So if I suffered it means I shouldn't believe anymore Hachem can heal those on their death bed?!? We should just stop praying for the sick then while we're at it for the infertile and any other seemingly desperate case since it demands a miracle. Yet I have also witnessed those miracles! Do I rely on them? No! But will I keep trying and hoping for one as long as possible? Definitely! because that is emuna! And if it doesn't happen than that it also emuna to accept the will of Hachem.

I don't want to upset you or bring up your pain but I am still being respectful and explaining what I have gotten from my rabbanim and my learning and my life's experience. You are entitled to disagree but not to be disrespectful. Besides I'm not sure you really understood me.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 10:16 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

[b]

“Who defines the nature of a miracle” - The Torah!! My strong words are not coming from my pain it is coming from shock and outrage for the blatant disregard of Halacha and Torah. We are given guidelines of what constitutes an open miracle and are told we are not allowed to Daven for an open miracle .
“Someone pointed out already אין סומכים על הנס means we don't rely on a miracle, but we are allowed to pray for one and have faith in it.]” this is a direct disagreement with what her Rav told her (and is stated in Halacha). And your own words In short we need a certain outcome but the way we reach it shouldn't be what we pray for since Hachem has His ways.this statement contradicts the statement above saying you don’t rely on it but can Daven for it and here you say shouldn’t pray for outcome so no I don’t completely understand what you are attempting to say . But I do know saying “we need a certain outcome “ is far from Emuna or bitachon. Emuna means I accept Hashems will (even if it’s not what I feel I need) . When a person as at a point that an open miracle is needed
that is the point of acceptance of Hashems will.
Your statements directly contradict what her Rav told her and that is what is upsetting me. I’m appalled that anyone other than another competent Rav would have the audacity to contradict a Rav. Especially when her Rav is basing his answer on known Halacha and you have no clue what the true circumstances even are. I’m thrilled you have witnessed open miracles but it still doesn’t mean you were allowed to Daven for it.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 13 2023, 11:55 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

It was already brought up before that the example of a wasted tefila is one for something that is already done like changing the gender of a baby 40 days after conception. If you ask to relive yesterday or to have been born to other parents or the like, things that are already done, than you are asking for a miracle that although Hachem can perform He doesn't want you to ask, (and even there we see exceptions but I will leave that out) but if you are dealing with a difficult situation as hopeless as it may seem as long as it is not in the past you can hope and pray for salvation. Even more you SHOULD put your faith in Hachem and turn to Him as He is The only possible source of salvation.
Show me a source in halacha or in the poskim that say otherwise.

If a tumor has grown and spread throughout one’s body or has overtaken majority of ones brain that is as you say “in the past and has already occurred” because it is already there. So you yourself agree in that case you can’t Daven for it not to be where it is, because it is already there and therefore when cancer has spread to a point of being fatal or other illnesses that are already ravaging one’s body you can not Daven for it not to be because it already is and therefore cannot Daven for a refuah because it is not medically possible since it is already ravaging the body.

amother

Tulip

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 4:49 am

amother Mistyrose wrote:

What ?!? It's the complete opposite! It is not in the past since the person is still alive and Hachem can definitely heal them and we have an obligation to pray for that. Excuse me but this is a perfect example of misunderstanding Thora and the words of the chachamim.
According to your logic here a person should never ask to change his situation for the better since it's the will of Hachem that he's in it in the first place. It's the logic of Sedom who would say if you're poor it's Hachem's will so accept it and don't dare ask for tzedaka... I remind you they were destroyed because of this.
Hachem yearns for our tefilot!!! Even if you have a sword at your neck you should still have faith in The Almighty and call to Him!!!! This is what we are thought!

You and I both have no idea what the op's rav paskened on exactly so stop saying I'm going against him or halacha.

I'm stopping here because you are redefining the basics of tefila and emuna and if you would listen to me I would suggest you discuss these points with a competent rav.
My Rav who was a big tzadik would tell us over and over: "רק תפילה".

There are countless sources in the Thora and the holy sefarim that support what I am saying while you are basing yourself on your explanation of one statement in chazal that we don't rely on a miracle.

I don't want to overtake this thread anymore than we already did so I will stop it at that.

Hachem should bless you and op

amother

Sage

Wed, Jun 14 2023, 6:22 am

amother OP wrote:

I'm sorry I really hate these miracle stories. Maybe my friend won't have a miracle. Then what do we do with someone else's miracle- just makes the pain deeper.

I also hate these types of stories.
It says in the mishna
חיב אדם לברך על הרעה כשם שהוא מברך על הטובה, שנאמר (דברים ו) ואהבת את... בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאדך.

בכל לבבך, בשני יצריך, ביצר טוב וביצר רע י.

ובכל נפשך, אפלו הוא נוטל את נפשך.

ובכל מאדך, בכל ממונך.

A person has to say a bracha for bad things just as he says a bracha for good things. as the posuk says And you should love Hashem your G-d with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your worth. (skipping the next bit) with all your soul - even if He takes your soul.

Emuna is believing that if He takes away your soul it is as good for you as when He gives it to you. You say a bracha just as you say for good things.

It's a very, very long and difficult path but that's where we are supposed to get to. That when we see something "bad" and something "good" we have emuna that they are equally what we need.

Acc to this, someone else's miracle shouldn't leave a bad taste in our mouths. It should be a guide as to how connected we should feel from bad things that happen. The same level of connection as they felt from their miracle.

It's all very well to say it but you better believe I am a long way away from there.....

It's been a long, hard month. And a lifetime's work ahead of us....