Eating fleishig during the 9 days for a woman's siyum

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:10 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

As a sephardi woman, I'll list the ones that we don't (or shouldn't be) making brachos in:

1. Birchos pesukai dzimra and birchos krias shema (in shachris and maariv)

2. Hallel, except for pesach night. (Whereas sephardi men, who are obligated in Hallel, make a bracha anytime there's a full Hallel)

3. Shofar

4. Megillah

5. Esrog, lulav, succah

And others I'm sure I'm forgetting now. Basically, we pasken that anything that isn't a chiyuv doesn't get shem u'Malchus.

We don't make a bracha on shofer
We don't make a bracha on megillah
We don't shake lulav/esrog, the girls that want to, don't make a bracha. We don't make a bracha for eating in the sukkah.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:10 pm

I won't clutter the thread with individual responses, but thanks for the well wishes to those above. I don't think that it's a bragworthy accomplishment objectively for someone my age, but I got a late start. I am very "accomplished" in the secular world, so it is funny to be excited about something that is more typically celebrated by a sixth or seventh grader.

With mishnayos, I started about a year and a half ago, and also got DH into them. We became frum as adults and we are both at a similar level when it comes to Hebrew grammar and vocabulary. We are actively working on our Hebrew skills, together with a tutor, in parallel with the Mishnah learning. The tutoring involves a lot of translating from Tanach. I find they all reinforce each other, and my davening has also improved a lot as my Hebrew has improved.

amother

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:22 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

Thanks, I listened to the shiur.

So you can probably see why I was reluctant to try to summarize it Smile

There is a lot of careful building up to the conclusion.

Even in casual conversation, I try to be careful when discussing positions of rabbonim, because they often choose their words very carefully and it is easy to misstate, especially for someone like me who doesn't know what she doesn't know and might not realize why a certain word is important. When I do cite IRL, I try to couch it as "my impression was," and "the way I understood it was," and I will usually tell people they should read or listen for themselves and not rely on my account.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:25 pm

amother OP wrote:

[b]So you can probably see why I was reluctant to try to summarize it [/b] Smile

Yeah, I can see that.

amother

Poppy

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:26 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

My question is that if women have no chiyuv to learn torah, how can a women's siyum be considered a seudos mitzvah & be allowed to eat meat in the 9 days.
(The links don't seem to work.)

A mitzvah can be a mitzvah even if it's not a chiyuv.

(Do you shake Lulav and Esrog? Do you make a bracha Asher Kidishanu? You know you're not mechuyav.)

amother

Sienna

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:32 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

I’ve never been to a bris where they served meat.

I've heard it's an inyan to have fleishigs

Thing is, many brissim are in the morning... What

amother

Sienna

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:33 pm

amother Babyblue wrote:

Which mitzvahs do Ashkenazi women make brachos for that we're not commanded to do that specific mitzvah?

Al divrei Torah, lulav, etc

amother

Sienna

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:39 pm

amother Poppy wrote:

A mitzvah can be a mitzvah even if it's not a chiyuv.

(Do you shake Lulav and Esrog? Do you make a bracha Asher Kidishanu? You know you're not mechuyav.)

There are actually differences of opinion. If doing a Mitzvah you weren't commanded to do counts as anything. Iirc, sefardim wouldnt do it (ex shake lulav), Ashkenazi hold you can do without Bracha, and Chabad hold that if you do it it should be with a Bracha

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 20 2023, 11:55 pm

amother Poppy wrote:

A mitzvah can be a mitzvah even if it's not a chiyuv.

(Do you shake Lulav and Esrog? Do you make a bracha Asher Kidishanu? You know you're not mechuyav.)

No, we don't shake lulav esrog. The females that want to, do so without a bracha.

essie14

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 12:21 am

amother OP wrote:

Some hold you can and should, others disagree, see links below for more details. AYLOR if needed.

My LOR says yes, and I just did my first one ever today, on a seder of mishnayos. I wasn't planning for it to fall on the nine days, but it worked out that way.

We didn't do anything big or fancy, just me and DH and the kids eating fleishig takeout at home. But it was special.

Anyone else either made a siyum during these 9 days or planning to?

Halacha shiur by Rabbi Aryeh Lebowitz, who mentions that Rav Schachter agrees l'halacha that it is permissible to eat meat at a woman's siyum, assuming she is learning l'shem shamayim, etc.:

http://www.yutorah.org/lecture.....iyum/

Rav Shlomo Wahrman's teshuva permitting the practice, which is discussed in the above shiur: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdf.....um=47

Kol hakavod!!! Mazal tov!

amother

Daisy

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 12:54 am

Mazel tov on your siyum OP! I'm sure it took a of of fortitude to learn through the whole seder of Mishnayos.

I personally don't come from a community where women learn mishnayos, but there's definitly a part of me that wishes it would be more of a thing in my world.

And as we used to say as kids, Chazak Chazak Venischazeik (my mother bought a chocolate cake) !! Very Happy

juggling

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 2:26 am

amother Babyblue wrote:

We don't make a bracha on shofer
We don't make a bracha on megillah
We don't shake lulav/esrog, the girls that want to, don't make a bracha. We don't make a bracha for eating in the sukkah.

That's not the mainstream Ashkenazi psak. If in your community that's what's done, okay, but in most Ashkenazi communities women do these mitzvot and make the bracha with shem and malchut.

juggling

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 2:29 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

I’ve never been to a bris where they served meat.

In my MO community a bris seuda is always dairy. If someone had a bris in the nine days and davka served meat I would find it a little funny.

However in many yeshivish and sefardi communities a bris seuda is always fleishik. I've been to a few like that. In that case, if a bris fell out during the nine days it would be 100% the right thing to do to serve meat.

juggling

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 2:34 am

OP, Mazal tov on your siyum. And kol hakavod for your respectful approach to this somewhat heated issue.

Babyblue, kol hakavod to you for taking an open-minded approach to something that was obviously very far from your own experience, listening to the shiur on the subject and broadening your perspective.

May everyone's respectful discourse bring us closer to the geula.

amother

Hawthorn

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 4:16 am

amother Babyblue wrote:

We don't make a bracha on shofer
We don't make a bracha on megillah
We don't shake lulav/esrog, the girls that want to, don't make a bracha. We don't make a bracha for eating in the sukkah.

Who's we? What community are you from?

Most Ashkenazi women certainly make brichos on these things and others that ladies are not chayuv in.

We wake up in the morning and say birchos Hatorah.
I was taught can't speak Torah ideas, say tehilim etc until I say birchos Hatorah.im not chayuv in the bracha though!

If there's hallel, a bracha on hallel.

If you go to a lady's shofar blowing, a lady gets up and says a bracha (slightly differently iirc).

If you eat in the succah, most ashkenazi ladies are making a bracha.

When you shake arba minim then too.

Sefira is a shaila.

( BTW, women are chayuv in megillas Esther so I hope youre hearing it with a bracha!)

Eta. I'm in mainstream yeshivish Lakewood.

amother

Hosta

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 5:06 am

amother Babyblue wrote:

We don't make a bracha on shofer
We don't make a bracha on megillah
We don't shake lulav/esrog, the girls that want to, don't make a bracha. We don't make a bracha for eating in the sukkah.

Which rov holds like this? You write you are ashkenazi but this is not the ashkenazi minhag.

DrMom

Fri, Jul 21 2023, 6:28 am

We are not in the habit of making a siyum so we can eat meat during the 9 days, but if we were, we would not distinguish between a siyum to commemorate a women learning vs a man learning.

I've been to both chalavi and basari seudot brit milah. Most of the basari ones were given by Sefardi families, who typically hold them in the afternoon. Many chiloni Israelis do the same. I've also gone to an Ashkenazi morning brit milah that was basari.