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Forum
-> Working Women
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amother
Feverfew
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 Thu, Nov 09 2023, 1:48 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | Maybe you're right. But think about the expenses a mother of 8 has vs. an 18 year old girl. |
Your expenses are your problem, not your boss's. They don't need to pay you more because you have higher expenses. If you need to increase your income then you can increase your hours or find a diff job that pays better
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amother
Alyssum
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 1:53 pm
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What are jobs with growth? Need some tips how to view the job market and making myself marketable
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amother
Melon
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 1:53 pm
| amother Mimosa wrote: | But when you work for a frum employer, they do.
My co worker who’s working for longer than I do couldn’t get my boss to agree to cut her hours, but when I had my 1st child it was a given that my hours will be cut. Same for salary. |
Wow that’s so disgusting.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 1:57 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | Maybe you're right. But think about the expenses a mother of 8 has vs. an 18 year old girl. |
Rhis is not why anyone is paid what they are paid.
One is paid based on the job they are performing.
Not their family status or number of children. That would be very unfair on so many different levels.
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amother
Mimosa
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 2:04 pm
| amother Feverfew wrote: | | No not all frum employers do that. If you boss does, then he/she is very wrong. Salary should have absolutely nothing to do with marital status or number of children |
Oh I agree it’s wrong on every level. But I still think that s the reality in many frum places.
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amother
Oatmeal
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 2:53 pm
| amother OP wrote: | | Maybe you're right. But think about the expenses a mother of 8 has vs. an 18 year old girl. |
That's not how pay scales work...they are not intended to consider your expenses in terms of your family makeup.
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creditcards
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 5:33 pm
| amother Mimosa wrote: | | Oh I agree it’s wrong on every level. But I still think that s the reality in many frum places. |
I don't think it's actually because the boss cares about your expenses. When a boss feels there is a risk you might leave him if he doesn't increase you and he wants you to stay he will agree to increase you or lower your hours. Your boss might assume you wouldn't stay if he doesn't give you what you want so he agreed to what you asked for. As for your co-worker, he either new she will stay regardless, or he doesn't care if she stays or leaves.
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amother
Apple
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 7:16 pm
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It is illegal to pay workers more based off gender. Ask a lawyer but if salary is based off something that is not possible for everyone to achieve then it might too be illegal. You can hire based off of accomplishments, degree, years on job, skills etc.
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amother
Mimosa
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 7:26 pm
| creditcards wrote: | | I don't think it's actually because the boss cares about your expenses. When a boss feels there is a risk you might leave him if he doesn't increase you and he wants you to stay he will agree to increase you or lower your hours. Your boss might assume you wouldn't stay if he doesn't give you what you want so he agreed to what you asked for. As for your co-worker, he either new she will stay regardless, or he doesn't care if she stays or leaves. |
Yes, you’re right. This makes sense.
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amother
Snow
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 7:39 pm
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I recently advertised for a part-time employee. I got resumes from frum women with typos, no cover letters, no relevant work experience, etc. Everyone who applied wanted extremely flexible work time, to work from home, etc. One woman seemed relatively qualified except she was experienced in a completely unrelated field but she was asking for close to $50 per hour for a guaranteed number of hours per week. I hired a non-Jewish woman who also has no experience but loves to read, is attention oriented and willing to train, for $25 a hour. Why would I hire frum when I can get someone who's resume didn't have typos and was happy with $25 a hour? Not a single frum applicant had the experience I needed so why should I pay more for them than someone else? I don't care about your personal life or expenses. Get a degree in something useful so I can justify paying you more. Also, be willing to commit to a real job without telling a prospective employer that you need a super flexible schedule to do x, y and z but want top dollar with no field experience. The expectations are unreal these days and that's why employers like me are hiring non-Jewish women instead.
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Growing
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 7:49 pm
| amother Snow wrote: | | I recently advertised for a part-time employee. I got resumes from frum women with typos, no cover letters, no relevant work experience, etc. Everyone who applied wanted extremely flexible work time, to work from home, etc. One woman seemed relatively qualified except she was experienced in a completely unrelated field but she was asking for close to $50 per hour for a guaranteed number of hours per week. I hired a non-Jewish woman who also has no experience but loves to read, is attention oriented and willing to train, for $25 a hour. Why would I hire frum when I can get someone who's resume didn't have typos and was happy with $25 a hour? Not a single frum applicant had the experience I needed so why should I pay more for them than someone else? I don't care about your personal life or expenses. Get a degree in something useful so I can justify paying you more. Also, be willing to commit to a real job without telling a prospective employer that you need a super flexible schedule to do x, y and z but want top dollar with no field experience. The expectations are unreal these days and that's why employers like me are hiring non-Jewish women instead. |
Get off your high horse.
Plenty of educated smart savvy frum women are hardworking dedicated valuable employees who share their employers values and don't present any risk to their employer. Your experience is anecdotal and in no way reflects the reality of the frum workforce
As to the OP
The correct answer is that you should've gotten at a minimum $1.5 annual raise if you performed well.
Employee turnover costs employers money. Employee turnover is a headache for employers as they need to train and learn to trust a new person. Your value lies in your knowledge of his business his customer base etc.
That said; the unfortunate reality is that most businesses will cap administrative work at $30-$34 an hour. $35 -$49 is reserved for those who take on supervisory or other responsibilities beyond basic admin work; work that requires certification or experience or both
If you are staying for the flexible hours - you can request more PTO or other benefits aside from direct compensation
Good Luck
Last edited by Growing on Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Apple
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:08 pm
| Growing wrote: | Get off your high horse.
Plenty of educated smart savvy frum women are hardworking dedicated valuable employees who share their employers values and don't present any risk to their employer. Your experience is anecdotal and in no way reflects the reality of the frum workforce
SNIP |
Why would a non Jewish employee be a risk? Actually, often they are better for frum companies because they aren't bothered to work on Fridays, erev Chag, isru chag... and are easily educated about frum needs (not shaking men's hands etc).
Why wouldn't someone non Jewish by default not have the same values? My newest coworker is family oriented, cares about helping others, speaks nicely/politely etc. All relevant to my field. And not Jewish at all. So she asks for December 25th off. Big deal.
I work in a diverse setting. The Non Jewish employees are as diverse as snowflakes. Each one is different. Many share similar values.
It is not as though hiring frum is guaranteed anything. A single girl may get engaged and leave in 2 months. Frum women tend to have random days off when school is out. You just have to find the right fit and price for your office.
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amother
Snow
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:10 pm
| Growing wrote: | Get off your high horse.
Plenty of educated smart savvy frum women are hardworking dedicated valuable employees who share their employers values and don't present any risk to their employer. Your experience is anecdotal and in no way reflects the reality of the frum workforce
As to the OP
The correct answer is that you should've gotten at the minimum $1.5 raise per year worked there.
Employee turnover costs employers money. Employee turnover is a headache for employers as they need to train and learn to trust a new person. Your value lies in your knowledge of his business his customer base etc.
That said; the unfortunate reality is that most businesses will cap administrative work at $30-$34 an hour. $35 -$49 is reserved for those who take on supervisory or other responsibilities beyond basic admin work; work that requires certification or experience or both
If you are staying for the flexible hours - you can request more PTO or other benefits aside from direct compensation
Good Luck |
My high horse? Welp, excuse me for having basic expectations for an employee asking for anywhere between $35 and $50 a hour when a high school girl can do the same work for less. It's not my high horse that's the problem. It's the women who expect way more money than they are worth simply because they've deigned to join the workplace, even tangentially. Typos, badly drafted email intros, poor phone skills. How are you worth what you are asking? Be honest with yourself. That's my point, as an employer who has 10+ employees and is frum. The women who beg for jobs on this site and then ask for the moon with zero skills are the ones on high horses. Choosing a cheaper, similarly unskilled non-Jewish woman is becoming a viable alternative to frum employers and if you think it's not the case, remember employees are replaceable. Yes, it may cost more, but everyone can be replaced. If you want a real life example, look at B&H. So much of their workforce is now non-Jewish. It's a melting pot there when ten years ago, it was much more frum. This is the reality of the workplace today. Cheaper employees, dedicated because of the benefits and pay and basic skills. That's all it takes these days.
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#BestBubby
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:16 pm
I do feel hiring non jews is risky.
If they get angry, more likely to take nekamah,
Moser on you, sue you...
I feel more comfortable hiring frum.
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Growing
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:18 pm
I just want to clarify
I don't think all non-Jewish employees are a risk
nor do I think all Jewishe employees are not a risk
I took you to task for the tone of your post more than for the point being made
I can completely understand and relate to the fact that you'd like to pay an employee for value skill expertise attention to detail etc.
I just have an allergic reaction when I hear/read people talking down to others
There are kind caring ways to communicate a message
I also want to add that in today's environment with inflation and all; Jews and Non Jews are requesting higher pay rates
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amother
Lemonchiffon
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:19 pm
| #BestBubby wrote: | I do feel hiring non jews is risky.
If they get angry, more likely to take nekamah,
Moser on you, sue you...
I feel more comfortable hiring frum. |
and worse....
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amother
Snow
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Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:32 pm
| Growing wrote: | I just want to clarify
I don't think all non-Jewish employees are a risk
nor do I think all Jewishe employees are not a risk
I took you to task for the tone of your post more than for the point being made
I can completely understand and relate to the fact that you'd like to pay an employee for value skill expertise attention to detail etc.
I just have an allergic reaction when I hear/read people talking down to others
There are kind caring ways to communicate a message
I also want to add that in today's environment with inflation and all; Jews and Non Jews are requesting higher pay rates |
If you got resumes from 6 frum women, all of whom you prioritized because you want to help them over college aged, non-Jewish prospects, but kept seeing an insulting level of zero effort but then writing that they would be willing to take the job for $40, $48, $50... per hour, you would be frustrated too. I think it's important to take the kid gloves off and be straightforward. If you lack skills, don't demand top dollar. If you don't want to really work but just supplement your income, then don't apply for a serious position. It's insulting to those who want the job and to employers who give you their time and consideration. Perhaps I can be nicer about this as an anonymous woman on a public forum. I feel I'm beyond nice when turning down these women. I don't even bother telling them that they lack the skills to have applied but here, it's a disservice to pretend an employer doesn't care about these things. There is a direct correlation between skills, suitability and salary. My tone is deliberately harsh because it's important to know your worth but not inflate your sense of self to a point where you lose jobs. Be realistic. Be cognizant of who's time you are wasting and put some effort into how you approach a prospective employer. That's the straightest advice I can give. Sorry if my tone triggers anyone but I dont think sugar coating this is helpful.
Also, speaking of kind and caring ways to communicate, telling me to get off my "high horse" was neither kind or caring. I guess it's okay because you didn't like what I had to say but that's my point. If you don't like to hear what an employer has to say, don't ask. Or respond. My advice still has value, even if you don't agree or like it.
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amother
Amethyst
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Fri, Nov 10 2023, 4:11 am
| amother Apple wrote: | | It is illegal to pay workers more based off gender. Ask a lawyer but if salary is based off something that is not possible for everyone to achieve (accomplishments, degree, years on job) then it might too be illegal. |
Am I misunderstanding, or are you suggesting that hiring based in accomplishments, degree, and experience might be illegal? And why would you say that these things are not possible for everyone to achieve? These are basic job related skills. I think requiring a degree can often be silly. But far from discriminatory.
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amother
Apple
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Fri, Nov 10 2023, 7:13 am
| amother Amethyst wrote: | | Am I misunderstanding, or are you suggesting that hiring based in accomplishments, degree, and experience might be illegal? And why would you say that these things are not possible for everyone to achieve? These are basic job related skills. I think requiring a degree can often be silly. But far from discriminatory. |
Sorry. Typo. I meant to say that besides for accomplishments, degrees etc. Let me fix my post.
Hiring because of race, gender, age, religion etc are discriminatory.
It should only be be based off of accomplishments, degrees, skills etc.
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amother
Aconite
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Fri, Nov 10 2023, 9:38 am
Bumping to ask the going rate for an office job in Monsey (part time). I have many years of experience which likely won't be too relevant in other businesses (as it's specific to the field I'm currently in).
I do have managerial/office manager experience though...
Thank you all!
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