Is Kollel the root cause??

amother

Lightyellow

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:34 am

amother Eggplant wrote:

Here's my fears when I think of my husband leaving kollel.
I'll never see him anymore. We're a real team now with the housework and childcare etc. I do sometimes wish that the burden of parnassah wasnt on me but then all the housework would be on me and I certainly dont want that! I'm good at my job but terrible at running the house. The kids would also hardly get to see him. Every minute that he wasn't working would be in the bais medrash and I wouldn't see him motzai shabbos or even for a minute on sunday or early mornings or evenings. And he's able to be so relaxed and present now without any work pressures and what would I do if we were both anxious pressure cookers? Also, I'm pretty sure that our parnassah has real bracha now because of his learning. Will we gain anything financially from him leaving kollel? We're not on any government programs so I'm not afraid of that but I think my job is a miracle.

You speak for many with these words. Kollel doesn't work for everyone and it might not work forever but for many those years feel deliciously blessed.

amother

DarkOrange

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:40 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

As someone who was raised by a supposedly SAHM who was never home and present for me (she was out pursuing her own interests) I chose a Kollel lifestyle where I work for a few hours a day. I am very much present for my children for many more hours. It is quite possible to raise children well, even if I sent my baby out to a babysitter for a few hours when she was 2 months old (and co-slept with her and took care of her for all the remaining hours).

I actually found that newborns are better at the babysitters than toddlers - toddlers need their mother's time MORE. That's when I reduced my hours and lived on less, to give them more time with me.

I wonder if you'd have this arguement with a family who lives more comfortably on two salaries.

How are you practically raising a large family on just a part time salary?

GLUE

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 10:01 am

There is something else that nobody talks about. I get very upset when I read these "fairy tales" (for lack of a better word).

In most Frum magazines there are stories about the Kollel family living in poverty and the family were the father works that live in luxury with the mother not working and having cleaning help, nannies, ect..

I think those stories are toxic, it gives people unrealistic idea that if your husband is not in Kollel you should be rich.
While most people will say that those stories are not true. I do think they do give people unrealistic expectation.

Maybe I am wrong but that is my opinion.

amother

Lightyellow

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 10:33 am

GLUE wrote:

It's called stereotypes and they are a huge disservice in every way.

mig100

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 4:29 pm

GLUE wrote:

I agree. that's a poor stereotype. The vast majority of people are not wealthy or even close.

The biggest difference I would say, is that non- kollel women are probably not under as much pressure to work. They can consider taking a break or cutting hours more easily. Most are not living lavishly

amother

Lightyellow

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 4:41 pm

mig100 wrote:

And many(most?) Kollel families don't live in the abject poverty portrayed in many stories. As a yeshivish, kollel wife I don't see myself in any of those stories.

amother

Snow

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 4:43 pm

amother Lightyellow wrote:

And many(most?) Kollel families don't live in the abject poverty portrayed in many stories. As a yeshivish, kollel wife I don't see myself in any of those stories.

That depends a lot on your stage on life, age of kids and other factors.

depends if you considered living off gov programs poverty

amother

Lightyellow

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 4:46 pm

amother Snow wrote:

That depends a lot on your stage on life, age of kids and other factors.

depends if you considered living off gov programs poverty

I'm not on programs. I'm not swimming in cash (at all!) I have a number of children in school and own my home bh. I'm just saying that types are portrayed in a very stereotypical way. When I read stories about kollel families there are many details that don't come close to my life.

amother

Peachpuff

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 4:49 pm

I know very few kollel families whose children are being raised by non Jewish nannies. My sister and most of her friends in the five towns kids are. Those of her two income friends that send to daycare do so mostly for a full day. Little babies and toddlers don’t see their parents until nightfall much of the year. Kollel families generally have the husband picking up the kids at 2 who watches them until their mother comes home and takes over.

mig100

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 7:54 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Another stereotype. Plenty of 2 working parents are not raised by nannies. none that I know of.

This lifestyle has more to do with the community than if they are learning/ working

amother

Tulip

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 9:10 pm

Chayalle wrote:

It's interesting, in DH's family where every one of his brothers started off in Kollel, but most (DH and one other brother are the exception, learning long term) transitioned to the work place. Every one of them is Kovea Itim - Chavrusahs, shiur, etc...
I'm from a JPF family, Kollel is not my Mesorah at all. Yet every one of my brothers went to Kollel, some long term, two are now in Chinuch, and one transitioned to the work place.
But those who married working boys (who were working already before marriage), I see that the learning has been a huge struggle for most.
So of those learning after a full day's work, many of them started out in learning.
I think the relationship with learning has to have been strong, to succeed in continuing it after a full days work. And I do think those who accomplish that these days, their Schar is very great indeed. I have a feeling we will see them in a special place after 120....and the women behind them.

I think you’re mistaking correlation to causation- those that left learning earlier (before marriage) may have been those for whom learning is harder to begin with - adhd or not connected as much etc. so they may have a harder time being kovea ittim as well.

My husband struggles to maintain his Chavrusah but he struggled with that when he was learning full time as well. Bh he is machshiv Torah and I work on myself to see his good kiddos etc. but staying in kolel for longer would not have helped him be better at time management etc.

Bh working is great for his self esteem and I really believe helps him be more machshiv Torah. I think his learning schedule will probably always be less consistent than others because everything in his life is like that but his passion for learning is bh growing.

mig100

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 9:12 pm

amother Tulip wrote:

good point.

you sound like an awesome and supportive wife1

amother

Papaya

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 10:44 pm

A few points as someone who used to think like OP but doesn't anymore:

1. Kollel is NOT being pushed as a standard for the masses anymore. This was true 15 or even 10 years ago but it is not anymore. Learning until marriage and then continuing FOR A BIT after IS being pushed. But that can mean a YEAR OR TWO for some couples. And it does. I know many, many young couples who did the kollel thing for one or two year and then the man went out to work. These are wonderful, mainstream people who are not considered "less than" in any way. Yes, they may need to push through the kollel thing to get a good shidduch, but is that really so awful? Is learning for a year after marriage really going to cause any of the issues you talk about in your opening post, OP? I think not. (Of course there are many who choose to stay in kollel longer, but to claim that this is being pushed as a standard across the board is false.)

2. Financial literacy in schools is a joke. Sorry, but it just is. On a recent Meaningful People (money) podcast, the host shared that he'd offered to give some financial literacy classes at a local yeshiva and the RY said there's no point cuz it would go in one ear and out the other. My own son, an 8th grader at an uber yeshivish school in lkwd actually learns this stuff right now. He told me he's learning about budgeting and credit cards and all that. But you know what? It won't make a difference to these boys if in one year, when they're in mesivta, they have Daddy's credit card and can swipe their way through sushi, pizza and other takeout all week long. Responsible money management and budgeting is taught best through life. If you want your kid to know how to live on a budget, PUT THEM ON ONE IN HIGH SCHOOL. This goes for girls and boys. STOP saying yes to every little thing, even if "all" their friends are doing it. Don't blame the school system if it's your own parenting that's handicapping your kids' future financial health.

3. This question is for OP and all the others who claim their schools sold them a lie about post-kollel life. Honestly, what did you think was going to happen when your DH left kollel? Did you imagine he'd start earning in the 6 figures without knowing how to open an Excel spreadsheet? I mean, really.

Yes, the post-kollel years can be challenging, but that's part of the mesirus nefesh it takes to live a kollel life. It doesn't end the day your DH walks out of kollel. So yeh, maybe the schools should stress this, but really, it's only logical to realize this. And if the schools aren't teaching this, again, the onus is on you, as the parent, to make sure your kids realize this.

4. This is in response to the point Chayalle and other posters made about a real working ben torah being such a rarity.

I have to disagree with this. And it's only because of the kollel system.

We have an incredible town (and its many neighbors) filled with businesses that have a beis medrash on premises, that have daf yomi shiur given daily and regular shiurim for the women, too, all thanks to the kollel system.

We have hundreds of shuls across town with morning kollelim (think 6am) and night kollels filled with working men who sit with their gemaras at the crack of dawn and deep into the night after a long day at work, because they know this is what's holding up the world, all thanks to the kollel system.

We have a number of respected, well-to-do baalei batim who are famous not for their flourishing businesses but for the shiurim they give each day which are watched and downloaded by tens of thousands of people across the world, all thanks to the kollel system.

We have shuls packed with men learning on every federal holiday, all thanks to the kollel system.

We have established businesses offering discounts to families in which the dh is learning in bmg, all thanks to the kollel system.

We have dozens and dozens of learning programs for boys and girls, women and men, on the phone, online, in shuls and in print, all thanks to the kollel system.

We have built a town where Torah is paramount and that is true for those zoche to spend their days in the beis medrahs, and those working to support their families.

And it's all thanks to the years and years in which kollel was pushed for the masses.

(And don't tell me all of this is true in other towns, because I grew up out of Lakewood and have lived elsewhere as well and I have never seen anything like this where torah learning is valued above all else across the board like you see in Lakewood)

Jewishmom8

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 10:59 pm

I don't get the connection between financial literacy and kollel.
Where do parents job fall in all this.
If you want your kids to know something you teach them.
Parents who think its important bring their kids to shul.
If you want your kid to know how to play piano you make them practice.
My husband has been in kollel for a long time and I hope my children can do the same for as long as they want or can.
He also taught every single one of them how to budget. How to use a spread sheet and all about money, saving, how to purchase a apartment etc.
One does not have to do with the other.

amother

Steelblue

Sat, Jan 06 2024, 11:09 pm

amother Chicory wrote:

BH my dh is good with languages and is great with English but English aside, In my post above what you just said I still dont understand how the system sets people up for success if a married man with babies, toddlers, a wife etc has to go out to work at X age and has to start schooling late, or find a career, or have family connections. Hope I am making sense

What you’re saying is true, both logically and factually. However, the wealthiest people in my out of town community, who live the flashiest lives , have the largest homes, go on the most lavish vacations , own summer homes at young ages, are ex kollel guys who jumped into “business” usually in the nursing home or real estate fields , and made it big.
Just one example- my brother in law - one of the most yeshivish people I know, who learned in brisk in Israel for several years after marriage , is a multi millionaire selling products on Amazon. I don’t even know where he got start up money from! He had zero college or secular education, and no work experience. His only “job” he had before the age of 30 was being a counselor in a day camp.
And on the other side of the coin, I have friends (and know of many men as well) who went to college , got degrees, skipped kollel altogether, did everything “right” as far as setting themselves up for success, dont even come close to the financial success of the above mentioned ex yeshiva guys. I can’t explain it myself!

The average CPA accountant in a firm makes less and has less potential to make as much as a guy who smoothly rolled into the nursing home field and is blessed with charisma and the guts to
Jump in.