DL/Torani retention rates

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 2:38 pm

I have a problem with the title, using the word retention doesnt feel right. Im not trying to make my children into clones of me, I am trying to inspire them to choose every day to live a life of commitment to Torah and Mitzvahs. But not as a retention but as a choice. I want my children to CHOOSE the path of Torah and not be a place-holder. A child may choose to practice their Yahadus differently than their parents (didnt Rashis grandchildren disagree with him, respectfully of course). Thats OK, it doesnt make them less in terms of Torah Jews.
Regarding OTD, datlash, etc. No two are the same, statistics arent going to change anything (only if you want to track this - which is controversial itself).
We have no idea who is frummer than who, only Hashem is the judge of this.

tryinghard

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 3:36 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

That's very nice in theory but the reality is that most people don't actively chose their lifestyle, they continue in their trajectory unless something happens to change that. And of course we make efforts to inspire our kids, but this is on a societal level.
L'havdil, Conservative Judaism has been bleeding youth for generations - to the right and to the left. It would be very valid to look at them and ask about retention rates, even though on an individual level, parents may make strong efforts to inspire their kids. And the statistics do speak to certain issues and causes.

As for "less than" - I'm not looking down on anybody. But you cannot compare Rashi's kids disagreeing with him and kids not being shomer shabbos. And yes, if my kid isn't shomer Shabbos chas v'shalom, I will not love them any less, but I would view their *religious observance* as "less than".

ora_43

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 4:23 pm

zebra111 wrote:

I heard a lecture recently which showed a survey I forgot the name of...otd from chareidi fams was under 20pc (cant remember actual figures), in dl fams it was just over 50pc

I'm guessing this was one of the surveys that worked off of school data. They look at how many kids to a certain type of school (eg hareidi) and how that tracks with the number of kids in hareidi high school and the number of hareidi-identifying adults. In theory, if you have 200,000 kids in hareidi elementary school, but 10 years later only 160,000 in hareidi high school, some are 'off the derech.'

It's a good way to get huge amounts of data very quickly. (instead of trying to go interview hundreds of people and put together a thousand 'in my sister's family...' stories)

But there's a problem: not everyone who sends to frum schools is frum.

A lot of DL/chardal families send their kids to hareidi schools for elementary and then switch them to DL schools for high school.

A lot of secular or traditional families send their kids to DL schools, but don't have the goal of their kids becoming fully observant.

So there's a super high rate of "leaving the community" that's actually just people from other communities staying where they always were.

amother

Mintgreen

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 4:23 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I didn’t think the discussion was who is frummer than who. Some basic things, Shabbos observance just for one, make a person religious or frum. Not keeping Shabbos is a big step and a very sad one. It removes the person from the Klal, though they remain Jewish forever. That in no shape or form can be compared to Rashi’s grandchildren disagreeing with him on the minutiae of interpreting Torah shebe’al peh.
Whether we’re dl, mo, chareidi or whatever box you choose, if we keep Shabbos we hope and pray our kids, grandkids and great grandkids will do the same. That doesn’t mean we want our kids to look like clones of us.
I don’t know of reliable studies on which group has the lowest rate of kids leaving mitzva observance. Most of what’s on this thread is speculation, anecdotal evidence or based on things people heard or read that I’m not sure are accurate.
Please don’t bring Rashi’s grandchildren into this thread. There’s no connection.

amother

Almond

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 4:28 pm

amother Cognac wrote:

Because I know a largeish amount of DL who went OTD in their late teens or early 20s, while planning to do tshuva in a few years and eventually raise DL families. It wasn't so much a rejection of the religion as a desire to taste the forbidden before they got too tied down (married, kids). From what I understand about Haredim, that would not be done because the social ramifications of going OTD are so much harsher.

Like an Amish rumspringa? What a bizarre idea. I have one or two friends who went OTD for a year or two after traumatic experiences in their youth, then came back when they found that being OTD wasn't the panacea they'd hoped for. But they didn't set out with the idea of getting a free ride in that they would have a good time, and then erase their sins by settling down to be good girls and boys when "the good life" was no longer fun. I also don't think they went hog wild, doing drugs and participating in orgies. I think they simply gave up Shabbos, stopped going to shul, and started eating anywhere they wanted. Not that I asked. I wouldn't.

ora_43

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 4:34 pm

Anyway. My sense is that having more lenient rules helps individuals. I have teenagers, I can think of many of their friends/classmates who are still in the religious community only because the community is able to welcome them despite boundary-pushing.

OTOH does it help on a community level? That I don't know. There's always a trade-off - eg one girl still keeps shabbat because she wasn't kicked out for wearing jeans and having a boyfriend, but now 2 more girls start wearing jeans. There's an influence that goes both ways.

All in all I think 'retention rates' are pretty high for every community including irreligious.

amother

Pewter

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 4:40 pm

ora_43 wrote:

This is what I was trying to say -you said it better

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:11 pm

tryinghard wrote:

I always thought that Hashem didnt want us to do the mitzvos out of rote or routine or "trajectory" but out of choice, appreciating what they are and what they do, out of simcha. He gave us Bechira Chofshis for a reason.

Im not sure what you mean by inspiring our kids on a societal level, I always thought it was the parents jobs to bring inspiration (in terms of Torah) into their home and lives. The society we choose to live in is a reflection of our ideals. The schools we send them to, the shuls we daven in, the books we bring into our home, the way we decorate our homes, how we spend our leisure time (and money) , the shiurim we listen to - are all choices to reflect the chinuch we want to give our kids.

You mention Conservative Judaism, I profess ignorance on the topic, sad but true. Same with Reform. I always viewed them, as well as "non Shomer Shabbos Jews" as Jews finding their way - hopefully back to Torah and mitzvos and pray daily that Hashem helps them on their path back. "פתחו לי פתח כחודה של מחט ואני אפתח לכם כפתחו של אולם"
I daven that even if they open a crack towards Hashem and Torah, Hashem will open the door wide and bring them back in.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 11:20 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I think blaming one girl for donning pants on the other, is a cop out. The girls who starts wearing pants is not doing so because the school allowed another girl in the class, she would have gone in that direction anyway. If a school admits a girl who has a boyfriend and wears pants, I think it has to come with the added chinuch for that girl to understand why wearing pants is wrong. And the added chinuch for the rest of the class.

They say that the bigger Rav is the one who finds the Heterim, its easy to assur everything. Same with schools and teachers. The better schools and teachers can handle the "lenient" rules, and accepting girls who wear pants and have boyfriends, and are able to teach them right from wrong.

Helping the individual doesnt have to come at the expense of the others in the group if there is an understanding of the group needs.

amother

Pewter

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 6:45 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I am seeing it in my kids schools - there are classes where almost everyone wear skirts and are shomer and there are classes where most of the class wear pants, are not shomer.
These are often kids from the same families and in the same school. I am happy that the school doesn't kick the struggling kids out - I think exposing my kids to living by there values when others aren't, and we are very hands on with our chinuch so it hasn't affected us so far - but some of the other parents are really unhappy with how things are going and would like the school to enforce standards out of school more....

B'Syata D'Shmya

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 6:53 am

amother Pewter wrote:

Of course the schools should enforce standards
That's their job and part of education.
School and life are not a free-for-all.
Accepting a struggling girl ( ur term) doesn't absolve the school from enforcing standards and teaching. It just gives them more to teach. They also need to get the parents of the struggling girl on board or it's all a waste.
I never meant the situation uou described. Thats negligence.

ETA: I had written " If a school admits a girl who has a boyfriend and wears pants, I think it has to come with the added chinuch for that girl to understand why wearing pants is wrong. And the added chinuch for the rest of the class"

amother

Cognac

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:03 am

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Pewter wrote that some parents wish the school would enforce standards OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL.

My best friend is DL and her parents sent her to a more Haredi school where you would get kicked out if you were seen wearing pants outside school. But for the most part, MOST DL think the schools should not be enforcing much of anything OUTSIDE of school. If it's severe bullying out of school, that would be the exception, but not modesty.

amother

Dodgerblue

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:05 am

amother Cognac wrote:

Why do they feel like they can't say anything re modesty outside of school?

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Feb 23 2024, 7:12 am

amother Pewter wrote:

In a dati leumi school?
Im thinking not. Thats not really a thing in the dati leumi world.
You have kids of many different types in a mamad school. And there are dress cides. Sometimes upheld, other times just not.
But out of school? Thats not the school's job. And not fair, in my opinion, for a school to umpose like that.