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Forum
-> Parenting our children
GLUE
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 Wed, Mar 06 2024, 2:32 pm
| amother Junglegreen wrote: | Here’s a better question.
What would Orthodox Judaism look differently today without mesorah?
Right off the bat:
Yeshivish/chassidish men’s black and white uniforms
Shabbos menu
Hamen tashen |
Yeshivish men of only bin wearing only black and white for the last 30 or 40 years.
When my brothers where in high school many of them and their class mates had different color shirts. The shirts were button down put they were not always only white.
Shabbous menu came from what people had in their country to eat. That is why different places have different menu's
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amother
Grape
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 2:45 pm
| Unigala wrote: | its interesting because mesorah was a big theme in my house growing up and played a huge role in our lives and chinuch.
but for us it was a point of pride! it was a way of connecting to our past. like, see where we come from! frum yidden back to har sinai with our unique ways of doing things. |
Similar feelings here! I never heard Mesorah being used in the way OP describes it. Was much more about how we are keeping the same Mitzvos and learning the same Torah as we've been doing for thousands of years. I also think because my family can trace ourselves back to Chachamim like the Maharsha, Baalei Tosfos, etc, it helped us feel connected to something much bigger than us. Was really never a negative thing.
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redapple
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 3:00 pm
| amother Blonde wrote: | yes but it is not the childs place to demand that from a parent.
what the parent has to work on is their cheshbon but a kid cant expect/demand this.
no one said kibbud av veim is easy. in fact I forgot who but someone in gemara who was an orphan is know to say hes so greatful that he is an orphan because he will never have the onesh of one who
trangesses this.
thats why I said before that the answer is not 2024 correct - the idea of authoritarian parents who are not our friends but our PARENTS. and who children are expected to hold in respect and awe - is just not popular. |
Not expecting or demanding as I said I know it’s to much to ask parents and that is the sad part. Just as children have to work on the mitzvah of kibbud av parents also should do better and work on themselves. Again, I know it’s expecting a lot from parents. Some parents expect a lot from us children post marriage… and yes maybe I am chutzpahdig in expecting a small percentage of what is expected of me back from them… self awareness when parenting goes a long way
(I have adult children not married yet but that age and I can’t imagine putting my comfort and my image to “‘my circles” over their needs )
I don’t think 2024 wokeness is the only thing to blame for kids not holding their parents in respect and awe.. it’s unfortunatly also due to parents behaviors…
Kibbud av is the child’s mitzvah to keep, not the parent’s job to tell them how to keep it. (And sometimes bully and shame into it)
This is not to attack, just my opinions. And it’s based on my experiences and wondering if anyone can relate.
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ra_mom
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 3:46 pm
| amother Grape wrote: | | Similar feelings here! I never heard Mesorah being used in the way OP describes it. Was much more about how we are keeping the same Mitzvos and learning the same Torah as we've been doing for thousands of years. I also think because my family can trace ourselves back to Chachamim like the Maharsha, Baalei Tosfos, etc, it helped us feel connected to something much bigger than us. Was really never a negative thing. |
Same.
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#BestBubby
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 4:04 pm
Consult with a Rov.
But I believe it says in Gemorrah that a boy can choose to learn in a different yeshiva than his father wants and can marry without parental approval.
At same time should be as respectful as possible to parents.
I think if child would say this was decided together with Daas Torah it would be more acceptable.
Maybe if the Parent's Rov would tell patents children may seek their own Derech it would help.
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Trademark
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 4:05 pm
| amother Blonde wrote: | yes but it is not the childs place to demand that from a parent.
what the parent has to work on is their cheshbon but a kid cant expect/demand this.
no one said kibbud av veim is easy. in fact I forgot who but someone in gemara who was an orphan is know to say hes so greatful that he is an orphan because he will never have the onesh of one who
trangesses this.
thats why I said before that the answer is not 2024 correct - the idea of authoritarian parents who are not our friends but our PARENTS. and who children are expected to hold in respect and awe - is just not popular. |
Kibud av v'eim has specific halachos.
What does authoritarian parents have to do once a child is married and/or an adult? The Torah allows children to choose their own path. Obviously we should try not to cause or minimize pain to our parents, but we are absolutely not obligated to keep something just out of respect to our parents.
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amother
DarkGreen
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 4:18 pm
this is a question I'm wondering abt for a long time.. there are so many things that are not necessarily halacha that are a given in certain societies. like men wearing black and white - what is the purpose to it.
I'm wondering however what falls into the category of mesorah otherwise...
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sequoia
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 5:13 pm
| amother Blonde wrote: |
thats why I said before that the answer is not 2024 correct - the idea of authoritarian parents who are not our friends but our PARENTS. and who children are expected to hold in respect and awe - is just not popular. |
Are you sure this applies to adult children?
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#BestBubby
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 5:20 pm
| sequoia wrote: | | Are you sure this applies to adult children? |
Yes Adult Children are required to be very respectful to parents.
This does not mean that adult children have to obey all parental demands, but must still speak respectfully. Rabbinical guidance advised.
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amother
Green
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 5:21 pm
| amother Grape wrote: | | Similar feelings here! I never heard Mesorah being used in the way OP describes it. Was much more about how we are keeping the same Mitzvos and learning the same Torah as we've been doing for thousands of years. I also think because my family can trace ourselves back to Chachamim like the Maharsha, Baalei Tosfos, etc, it helped us feel connected to something much bigger than us. Was really never a negative thing. |
Are you saying that the term "Mesorah" means keeping the same mitzvos and Torah that Klal Yisroel has been keeping for always? That the mitzvos were passed down generations? I just call that doing what a Jew has to do.
Like I said, I did not grow up with the terminology 'keeping the Mesorah', but we kept and keep the Torah and Mitzvos. That's just what we have to did. I think some people mean here are using it to mean other things- like minhagim that their family does, or random things not related to halacha.
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amother
Whitesmoke
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 5:30 pm
| amother Green wrote: | Are you saying that the term "Mesorah" means keeping the same mitzvos and Torah that Klal Yisroel has been keeping for always? That the mitzvos were passed down generations? I just call that doing what a Jew has to do.
Like I said, I did not grow up with the terminology 'keeping the Mesorah', but we kept and keep the Torah and Mitzvos. That's just what we have to did. I think some people mean here are using it to mean other things- like minhagim that their family does, or random things not related to halacha. |
The bolded- yes, that is what I meant. All sorts of extra things that are not halacha but because of my father's strong family mesorah, he insisted on them as strongly as he insisted on us keeping shabbos. It was all very intense and strange to be essentially forced to do all these extra things that no one else in my community was doing as a child.
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sushilover
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 5:41 pm
Aren't you conflating mesorah and minhag? Minhagim are mesorah, but so are many mitzvos.
All of Talmud is mesorah. My belief in yetzias mitzrayim is mesorah.
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#BestBubby
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 5:42 pm
With so many children going off the Derech,
Parents should just be grateful their children are frum!
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tigerwife
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 5:50 pm
What would be an example of something done out of mesorah as opposed to a minhag?
Example: some people have a minhag to wear a white tichel on Friday night.
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amother
DarkGreen
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 6:09 pm
| tigerwife wrote: | What would be an example of something done out of mesorah as opposed to a minhag?
Example: some people have a minhag to wear a white tichel on Friday night. |
for Chassidish women, the kind of head covering they'll wear is considered 'mesorah'. I think it's not fair. Just bec someone's mom covered her Sheitel so does the daughter? often, if the daughter ends up not doing what her mom is, she becomes the talk of the town. Is that fair? That's what chassidim consider mesorah
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amother
Maple
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 6:13 pm
| tigerwife wrote: | What would be an example of something done out of mesorah as opposed to a minhag?
Example: some people have a minhag to wear a white tichel on Friday night. |
Maybe not eating gebrochts?
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gr82no
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 7:03 pm
People are confusing mesorah and minhag.
Mesorah I forgot the translation but it refers to what is passed from father to son from mattan torah. We always learned that we know kosher birds based on mesorah, mattan torah etc
There are different kind of minhagim such as kapparos which is a minhag yisrael and khalacha
Then theres family/community based minhag
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redapple
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 7:11 pm
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Mesorah somehow became minhag . It’s hard to differentiate. Things got Passed down from parents to their kids I guess that’s mesorah and because it’s passed down and the family does it, it became a minhag in the family ? I’m still unsure about it..
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Bleemee
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 7:16 pm
| tigerwife wrote: | What would be an example of something done out of mesorah as opposed to a minhag?
Example: some people have a minhag to wear a white tichel on Friday night. |
We know which birds are kosher through mesorah.
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amother
Olive
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Wed, Mar 06 2024, 10:48 pm
Not eating gebroks is a minhag, or maybe a chumash. Not mesorah.
I think people are really mixing these two things up.
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