S/o Do some users here parentify their children?

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 10:53 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Also I think there is a big difference between asking a 10 year old to help (not ok) or asking a 16 year old. Who is really almost an adult. A 16 year old can do it himself/herself without your working along with them. They can have a lot of responsibility without falling apart.

It's perfectly fine to have a 10 yo help! It builds so much in their self confidence and their feeling of being an important member in the family!

I asked my 8 yo to cut up vegetables the other night for dinner. Not because I needed the help but because she was, um, not interacting in a pleasant way with siblings, shall we say? It relieved her of boredom, took her away from a place where nothing good was going to come out from, gave her a sense of importance and that she matters, and bonus time with Mommy.

My 10 yo (son) cleaned the bathroom for shabbos last week. It's not part of the regular kids' rotation of jobs so I offered him the opportunity to make some money. He felt like a real cleaning lady (he's upset we don't have one because he thinks then there would not be any chores). He wanted an opportunity to fill his wallet (he got $1). It was all positive.... And yes I could use that help in that scenario.

It's really, really ok to have kids do household responsibilities. That is not the same as having the house run falling on their shoulders.

We've gone so far away from including our kids because we're afraid of parentifying that we're excluding them from feeling part of the family system. That leads to other negative consequences. Let's just be normal please. A little here and there and yes kids are still kids with lots of outdoor time and playdates and shmoozing on the phone and playing games and reading.... If a balance.

And about the baby whining in bed and causing an older sister to be anxious so all the posters are jumping on this, are you the same posters who are ok with "Ferberizing" (how I hate that verb) and then it's ok for a baby to cry but not if it means that an older sibling is getting anxious?

How I parent my babies is not changed based on my older children why think they know better. Let's say an older child told a parent to let the kid cry to sleep because it bothers them that the baby is up and about otherwise and getting in their stuff... Should a parent listen then?

Parents need to have the self confidence to use their intuition that they know what is right. And yes sometimes a baby will cry a bit even if an older sibling is anxious. If the older sibling now picked up the crying baby, wouldn't that also be parentifying by these standards since Mom isn't capable of holding said baby for 5 minutes as she tends to other needs?

We're so incredibly judgemental on here that no one can feel like they get anything right. There's no one perfect way. It's all good, we're trying our best, and we'll teach our kids resilience by not being perfect.

I'm so sorry that last year I had a crying infant that had to wait to be picked up as I helped my toddler who was toilet training make it to the bathroom in time not to have an accident. This is life. And it's all good because Hashem created our kids in their circumstances and we're using our bechira to do the best we can even though we're human. Hashem knows that and felt it was the perfect situation for our kids.

amother

Eggshell

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 11:05 am

amother Birch wrote:

Its because you are too chilled, the other kids assume responsibility. Its not ok for a baby to whine in a crib for a few minutes, by you not going in its causing anxiety for your older one and she goes to take him out, which is a good thing.
I see this a lot , when moms are too chilled ( slightly in denial/neglectful) their other kids pick up the slack. Please rethink this approach.
I do think it's healthy and normal for your toddler to run around the backyard with nobody hovering.

It's not okay for me to sit with my 5yo in his bed for 3 minutes and tuck him in because the baby is whining? It's preferable for me to first nurse the baby for 45 minutes and put her to sleep, and nobody else gets as much as a "good night" from me?

If the baby is hysterically screaming in her crib, of course I'll go get her. But she can be unhappy for a few minutes while I take care of other children.

Maybe you parent differently, that's fine. Maybe you're able to hold a squirming tired baby and still give full attention to your other kids. I'm not.

My kids may have different levels of tolerance for whining, but there's more people involved here. My 5yo will not appreciate if I don't sit with him for a few minutes because apparently the baby and 13yo's feelings are more important than his.

And you're okay with the toddler running around, but others say I should hover to give my 8yo "security." I'd rather teach her that it's okay for toddlers to take a tumble. I'd rather teach my 13yo that babies will sometimes be unhappy but we have to think of others in the family too.

A child taking on a responsibility, especially if it was not given to them, asked from them, or expected from them (especially when it's not even wanted) is not parentifying IMO.

amother

Goldenrod

Sat, Mar 16 2024, 10:52 am

amother Poinsettia wrote:

All the examples here are of girls being parentified. Seems the burden of child rearing and the responsibility of the home fall on the females of the family. I know a man , who was parentified as a young teenager and it has negatively affected his life. He did things that were not onerous but clearly were the parents responsibility and not his. For example, he cut the challah after his father said hamotzi , he negotiated the car lease and he did other fatherly duties.

I don't see how cutting the challa should negatively affect one's life.

Negotiating car lease is the type of parentification that is common in immigrant families where the kids are fluent and the parents barely speak. It is parentification, but this type is usually better tolerated than other types of parentification.

amother

Bellflower

Sat, Mar 16 2024, 11:15 am

There is no right or wrong answer here and no one can tell looking from outside what is really going on in someone else's house.

Some of it is very much about different standards between parents and kids. I don't mind if my 3 yr old wants to wear boots to kindergarten in the summer. My 16 yr old considers that neglectful parenting so she'll step in to make sure she looks perfect. That's not parentifying. It's her problem not mine. I will let a child wear the same clothes a second day if they're clean. She considers that embarrassing so she'll change their clothes. I'm quite comfortable serving soup and toast for supper. If she is bringing in a friend, she'll decide that's embarrassing so I'll let her make shnitzel if that's what she wants. That's not my neglect or me parentifying her, it's her setting standards that are higher than mine and stepping up to make them happen. I absolutely do not think I have to change all my opinions because she doesn't like them. My house is well run, my kids are happy and not overloaded although I do expect a certain contribution acc to age, if you heard her talking you might jump to the conclusion that I am not coping and expecting her to step up but it's really not like that at all. Proof of the pudding? My 19 yr old thinks she should chill and stop doing so much!

You can't say that every kid who steps up is doing it because the parents are not managing. Sometimes they just have different standards.

amother

Sat, Mar 16 2024, 1:43 pm

amother Eggshell wrote:

So you rely on the 13 year-old to calm down the baby whille you tuck in the 5-year-old?

What if 13 year-old is doing homework?
What if 13 year-old wants to visit a friend rather than be there to hold baby while you tuck in 5-year-old?
What if 13-year-old tells you: "it's your baby, you calm him down"?

amother

Bellflower

Sat, Mar 16 2024, 3:32 pm

amother OP wrote:

If this is not every single day, there's nothing wrong with a 13 yr old learning a sense of priorities. She can stop doing homework for 10 minutes. If she's out at a friend, you find a different way to cope and I sincerely hope most 13 yr olds are not rude enough to say "it's your baby, you calm him down". There's nothing wrong with a child helping out at home as long as it's not their problem. If you say, if you can't do it because you're doing homework, find me an alternative. or you can't go to a friend ever because I need you at home, that's a problem. But if they're in the house and you ask for a helping hand, there's nothing wrong with that.

amother

Eggshell

Sat, Mar 16 2024, 8:14 pm

amother OP wrote:

Actually, no. I don't rely on the 13yo to calm down the baby BECAUSE I'M OKAY WITH THE BABY BEING UNHAPPY FOR A FEW MINUTES.

Nobody needs to calm down the baby. Nobody needs to take her out of the crib. The baby is not screaming hysterically. The baby is not in danger. The baby is not starving, in an overloaded diaper, or in unsuitable clothing. The baby is just unhappy because I am not nursing her to sleep yet.

She can wait a few minutes while I take care of another child.

The 13yo doesn't LIKE that the baby is unhappy. Neither do I. But I am okay with it, because I'll be back to take her in a few minutes. The same way I let her cry if I need the bathroom or to take something out of the oven.

ora_43

Sun, Mar 17 2024, 8:20 am

Chiming in late here but there's a circular logic to this, OP.

- I, OP, am correct about what 'parentification' is
- Some posters disagree with me
- Those posters probably live by their own beliefs - which means they do things I think are parentifying
- Since I am correct about what 'parentification' is, that means they are parentifying their kids
- Which means they are biased and their opinions mean nothing

I mean, I'm sure it's true that people who parent badly are likely to deny that what they do is problematic. "You think that hitting/yelling/etc is bad?? Back in the old days, you would have been beaten to death every morning and then sent to work a 14-hour shift in the mines (therefore what I do is fine)" is classic abuser logic.

But at the same time, your logic could just as easily go the other way around.

ora_43

Sun, Mar 17 2024, 8:34 am

I think that everything has to be taken in context.

In the case of parentifying:

- age (of the child)
- who benefits from their work
- the degree of freedom they have
- reality

Age of the child: obviously what's 'parentifying' for a 5-year-old isn't for a 15-year-old and vice versa. A little kid who's required to do their own laundry is being mistreated, a teenager - not.

Ideally by the time they leave the home older teens are in the habit of doing enough work to keep their own space clean + functioning. You don't want a teen who's overworked at home but you also don't want a teen who's overwhelmed when they move out and have to buy food AND do laundry AND sweep.

Who benefits: IMHO it's generally a lot more OK to require kids to do chores that benefit themselves, or the entire family, than chores on someone else's behalf. Kid mops own floor > kid mops living room floor >>> kid mops sibling's floor.

Degree of freedom. If it's age-appropriate for a kid to do, say, 30 minutes of chores a day, it's age-appropriate that they be allowed to help of their own free will for, say, 90 minutes a day.

Here I think actual freedom is a lot more important than perceived freedom. WADR to the fact that a 14-year-old who feels like she needs to make sure her 4-year-old sister's clothes match might feel actual stress at the time, she's not going to feel actual trauma looking back from age 24 or 34 the way she would if her parents were taking advantage.

ora_43

Sun, Mar 17 2024, 8:37 am

Last but not least,

Reality. An early post here said kids translating for immigrant parents is 'parentification.' OK, and? Like - what's the alternative? I'm sure the parent would magically pick up English overnight if they could... Are they supposed to stay in Haiti or Pakistan or Ecuador or wherever, would that be better for their child?

Ditto for parents who have to work long hours to get by.

It's not that the reality makes it magically not-parentification but it's a lot less psychologically damaging when the parents are genuinely acting in the child's best interests. The child experiences some stress, yes. But most aren't going to experience the emotional damage that comes with having parents who parentify by choice. The second kind of parents don't recognize the child's needs, or don't respect them. That's a whole other level of bad.

amother

Crimson

Sun, Mar 17 2024, 8:52 am

ora_43 wrote:

My friend had to pay the bills and take all the calls because her parents didn’t speak English. She really suffered from it. I think the alternative is learning the language. They didn’t try and instead used their young kids and it was burdens that were way too big for their shoulders.

ora_43

Sun, Mar 17 2024, 9:48 am

amother Crimson wrote:

Parentifying due to necessity and parentifying by choice aren't mutually exclusive. Bad parents can also have genuine needs. It's the times when they're taking advantage that are harmful.

Like you say in your story, your friend wasn't harmed because of parents who had genuine concern for her limits but also had their own limits. She was harmed by parents who relied on her to do what they didn't want to do.

I do think that truly necessary parentification can cause trauma, too. But usually because the situation itself is traumatic. Eg a child can be traumatized by concern for a sibling during a war, but the thing causing trauma in that case is the war, not bad parenting.

amother

Goldenrod

Sun, Mar 17 2024, 10:08 am

ora_43 wrote:

I agree. I was already an adult when my English speaking only mother made Aliya. I had been living in Israel for a few years and spoke Hebrew pretty well. I was also married with small children and a full-time job.

At first, I was happy to help my mom by translating. But at some point, she wanted me to help her set up a new bank account and I told her "most banks have someone who speaks English. First, go into the bank and just say in English 'does anyone here speak English?', and if no one does, then I'll make time in my busy schedule to help you", and she didn't want to do that because she was too shy/social anxiety, and at that point I had to stop helping her most of the time because I was too resentful.

I was fine helping when there was a technical need (real language barrier) but was not fine being her crutch so she would never need to put herself in a slightly uncomfortable situation.

Luckily I was already an adult and able to say "no".

Giraffe

Sun, Mar 17 2024, 10:18 am

I did so many chores in the household. Been ironing even my older brother's clothes when he dumped it on me. I would get yelled at for making a mistake. My mother will call on me so much to the point that I was never relaxed about my "free time" since I know in 5 seconds I would be called again.

I decided to sacrifice my social life and not care for making friends at all since I did not see that as important. I really wanted to be the best daughter ever. But no good deed goes unpunished.

Stupid high school forced an unwanted intervention on me to make me talk for the sake of talking. Now I was punished for not talking enough and I had to say since cringy and embarrassing things just to show I am "socializing."

Nearly lost my job trying to "socialize" and got reported for every little thing I said since it was taken badly. I turned my life around no thanks to the horrible therapy industry doing the exact opposite of the therapy forced on me.

I saw the parent/child relationship as a master and slave relationship. So much hitting and screaming. Took me a long time to reconcile with my mother and understand the parent and child dynamic how it should be. The chose I give to my children are much more reasonable and age appropriate and I do not scream at them for errors. I balance them not sacrificing making friends or hobbies for constant, never ending chores. They always get thanked for their help so they know they are not being exploited.

Still a loner to this day. No female friends. Just my husband and children.