Vent: tznius at the pool

Leahh

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:39 am

I think people are nit-picking on the details but the general idea of what the op is saying is real and I agree with her.
People slack off on their beliefs when they are on vacation.
How many men wouldn't miss minyan when they're home but then go away on vacation to a place that doesn't have a minyan?
How many women cover their hair fully at home (not literally at home, but in her home town) then goes on vacation and wears a cap with her pony sticking out?
Or woman that wouldn't wear short sleeves but do on vacation?
People that eat food, kashrus-wise, that they would never allow into their home?
The list can be endless. People think that being on vacation means being on vacation from religious beliefs as well.
It's not our place to judge what we see but it is bothersome when you see it and know how wrong it is. I don't blame op for wanting to vent about what she saw. It's not as if she approached the woman and told her what she's doing is wrong. She's merely stating that she's bothered by the fact that the woman who presumably would be super careful about her knees and elbows covered when at home is away on vacation and suddenly does not care at all about being in front of men with her knees and elbows uncovered. She's entitled to be bothered and vent about it.
Eta: I once heard a speech by Rabbi Z Wallerstein on this topic. He said soon after he got married he went on vacation with his wife to a place that didn't have a minyan. He called his father and was schmoozing and it came out that there was no minyan. His father got furious at him (which he says was a rarity) and said that's not the way I raised you. Just because you're on vacation doesn't mean you allowed to Daven b'yichudis. Get on the next flight to a place that has a minyan. And R' Wallerstein elaborates alot on this issue and that vacation doesn't mean we're any less Jewish than we are at home.

Last edited by Leahh on Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total

HonesttoGod

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:40 am

If it really bothered you or your husband you shouldn't have watched.

I bet you turn away when you see a non Jewish couple making out in the street. Or when you see a large ad of a naked woman.
So turn around when you see someone doing something YOU don't like. YOU, not her. She obviously doesn't have a problem with it whether it is because she thought the pool was empty and didn't realize you were nosing from your window, or because she really couldn't care less on vacation, she doesn't have a problem. YOU do. So YOU turn away.

Re the hypocrisy. Think about it this way, people go on vacation and get completely drunk every night. At home they never would so why are they doing it now? Because vacation is a time to let loose. To relax. To chill out. For some people that means getting drunk, for others that means sky diving and snorkeling and for others that means going to the pool in a swim suit.

PS You don't know if she would do that in Williamsburg because ain't no one got pools in Willi!

amother

Powderblue

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:42 am

amother wrote:

I'm a chassidish woman from williamsburg. I recently traveled to cancun and Wore a bathing while swimming in the pool with my husband and whoever else wanted to join. Just because I live my day to day life a certain way doesn't mean that I agree with all of its standards. There are so many other reasons one would choose to live a chassidish lifestyle. I don't owe you an explanation.
And if you'd truly be so pious you would not stay with your husband and son in a room directly facing a pool then have the nerve to complain about how a woman walks around in front of them.

That's fine, but you do realize it's hypocritical to behave that way right?

animeme

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:48 am

Here's a concrete answer.

Many issues of tznius are subject to the concept of minhag hamakom. There are different shitos, and you may hold by a more lenient one. But if you live somewhere where everyone holds more stringently, you need to follow the minhag of the place when you are there. When you aren't there, you can do the more lenient view.

So a woman from Williamsburg may always wear her stocking and full hair covering while there, but when away, she is no longer bound by minhag hamakom. So if she holds that a tefach above the knee and elbow are fine, then she wears that, even if some people from her community are around, because she is not IN the community.

amother

Orange

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:50 am

Leahh wrote:

People slack off on their beliefs when they are on vacation.

Its not their beliefs theyre slacking off on, its their ultra religious behavior, that they dont necessarily believe in their heart of hearts is truly necessary to be a good Jew, but follow ultra-religious customs anyhow, to respect parents, remain in a certain crowd, not to be looked down at by religious family members, like mentioned by others.

Beliefs dont change, when youre in a different place. Only behavior does. Its what theyre willing to do in different places, away from their parents/sibs/Rebbes, etc that changes.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 7:52 am

amother wrote:

Why is this hypocricy?

Many people who wear hats and stockings don't sign up for such a lifestyle. They passively put it on because that's what their mothers do and that's what society demands they do.

Levush doesn't mean anything. It's not like someone buys a shtreimel and says, "The reason I'm buying a shtreimel is to proclaim to the world that I believe abcdxyz in Yiddishkeit and that I do this and that."

The reason most people wear certain levush is because that's what their parents did and that's what societal convention demands, and if they didn't it would be scandalous and the talk of town. Simple as that.

Just because you're taking the wrong message from their levush, doesn't mean they are a hypocrite when they do something you wouldn't expect them to do based on the message you interpreted wrong.

It's refreshing to have a chassidishe woman explain that the levush is sociological, not religious.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:15 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

this is extremely sad. for so many different reasons.
I do not wear what I wear because my mother did the same. I wear what I wear because it is what I want to wear.
As an adult, I stand on my own two feet and I do so because I want to do xyz, not because of what my parents did and not because of what my community does. But because it is what I want to do.
I find it very sad that people are wearing certain clothing because it is expected of them and it is just what is done in the community. I feel like saying, if you dont believe in that way, why stay?

shabbatiscoming, this is as old as the contrast between Yitzchak and Rivka, the tzaddik ben tzaddik and the tzaddekes bas rasha: we are supposed to own our Yiddishkeit. That the way we live our lives and the values we live by may closely mirror our parents is not a contradiction and often is a sign of health.

Chayalle

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:16 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Are their parents also dressing one way when they are in Brooklyn, but another way whilst on vacation?

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:17 am

amother wrote:

What kind of bathing suit did you wear?

Victorious

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:23 am

Whatever is against Halacha is against Halacha... period. (and that may be defined differently by every Rav)

But don't think a chassidish women is hypocritical when she deviates from her regular external standards when on vacation... she is rather psychologically forced by culture ... community and family to behave and dress in a specific way when she is in town, even it does not match her believes or desires.

you wouldn't believe the internal struggles these women experience on a daily basis having to live their double lives...

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:23 am

animeme wrote:

Major disconnect here.
I appreciate how a woman in say, Willi, may have learned in BY once upon a time that we have to keep knees, elbows, collarbone, hair, and possibly feet covered. She may find it jarring and oppressive to have more chumras than that, e.g. seamed stockings, no shoeties, what have you, but as mistyrose says, will live with the disconnect to get the benefits of living in Willi or wherever. And I appreciate what those benefits might be for her and her family.
But someone who can say, when in Willi dress like Willi and I mean the full nine yards, but when I go OOT I can expose a tefach and elbow is not clear on something. Sure, she may have learned the halachos and feels perfectly fine dressing so dramatically differently while on vacation, but the disconnect between the two is so major that she's living a lie.

Big difference from someone who dresses formally, never wears denim or sneakers and then in the mountain or OOT wears denim or slinkies, and sneakers and a pretied that covers everything. Because she's being consistent about the basic halachos she believes in.

One of the women might consider finding a new community for her sake and her kids' sake.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:26 am

Chayalle wrote:

Are their parents also dressing one way when they are in Brooklyn, but another way whilst on vacation?

See my post just above this. It depends how deep the difference in dress, and as has been said, behavior, is.
As the saying goes, someone who goes to shul and talks and spend the time shushing his son and making sure his son has his finger on the place will raise a son who goes to shul and talks and spends his time shushing his son and making sure his son has his finger on the place.

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:29 am

amother wrote:

OK, but... that's hypocritical.

"To remain in a certain crowd" - in other words, to get the social approval they would get by acting/believing a certain way, even though that's not really what they do/believe.

Pretending to have some "virtue" (even if you don't view it as a true virtue) when you really don't is pretty much the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.

Actually, if people slack off on their own religious beliefs, davka that would not be hypocrisy. Hypocrisy implies deliberate falsehood; just plain old failure to live up to your own standards 100% of the time is something else.

eta - just to be clear, I'm not saying hypocrite = terrible person. Their hypocrisy is understandable, especially if they are young.

Last edited by ora_43 on Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total

Leahh

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:30 am

amother wrote:

I hear you.
It is really sad that people live by a standard to impress others or fit in.
I am who I am regardless of where I am and it bothers me to see others be so hypocritical. If you can't handle the life style and you're just keeping it up because of where you live you need to move.
To the poster that mentioned getting drunk - there's nothing wrong with getting drunk (unless you behave inappropriately when you're drunk). People don't do it at home because they're day to day lives don't allow for it. But if someone had a week off and couldn't get away they may get drunk at home and it would be fine. However that person still won't leave her house in short sleeves because she's still in her home town. That's where the hypocrisy is.
If you would do it at home when on vacation then you can do it away on vacation. If you wouldn't do it at home on vacation you shouldn't do it away on vacation either.

out-of-towner

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:31 am

Victorious wrote:

And I believe that to be truly, truly sad.

My husband and I are self-made Chassidim (though my husband comes from Chassidic stock way back when). When DH first put on a Streimel, I told him "you are now identifying yourself as being very obviously from a certain community, it would behoove you to remember to act for what it stands for."

I totally understand OP. When people are in public (and yes, a hotel swimming pool is public no matter how you slice it), and they are dressing in a way that identifies them as being from a certain community, they probably should act according to the standards of the community that they represent. The way that the OP decribes the woman dressing appears to be very out of line to the Halachos of her community, so don't give us the whole "there are different Shitta's" excuse.

Leahh

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:32 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Very well said!

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 8:33 am

ora_43 wrote:

May you never know the pain of being forced to live a life you don't believe in due to incredible pressure from a family and community which are enmeshed with your personal decisions.

May you never know the fear of losing everything you have built your whole life on.

Some people break free, some people don't have enough emotional strength and fortitude to. Some people would rather live this way than face the immense consequences.

Give people some slack.