Do you believe in the supporting?

Cheiny

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 11:38 am

amother OP wrote:

Survey,
Do you believe in supporting a newly married couple?

I don’t have a problem with helping out a newly married couple if the parents are financially able to.

I do have a problem with parents going into debt, spending all their savings and retirement funds, etc so that the man can sit and learn full time. If someone chooses to learn full time and his wife is on board, they have to be ready to sacrifice financially and make do. It shouldn’t fall on their parents to support them, much less on the high standards that learning men and their wives are getting from their parents these days. They want houses, custom sheitels, the works, all on their parents’ dime.

I don’t understand where this ends… if the older generation has to spend their savings supporting the learners, how will the learners ever support their own kids if they’re not trained in any profession?

There has to be a plan for how long they’ll stay in learning and then they have to get a meaningful job.

amother

Begonia

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 12:15 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Kol hakavod!
Did you eat at your parents a lot? Use the washing machine? Take home food, etc.?

Yeses to any of these questions doesn't take away anything from you. It's just to encourage parents who can't but might want to, that there are still ways to be mechazek the kids that may not make major dents.

Lol I hear your point but I actually didn't do any of all those things.

I also paid for all the stuff that I'd be using after my wedding... (like appliances, clothing etc. And my parents paid for the wedding night and Sheva brachos.)

My parents set a limit on how much I can spend. They wanted me to get married with at least 5k in my bank account and up until that point I paid for stuff myself.

Why should my parents have to pay for all the stuff that I'll be using after my wedding?

I agree with you that supporting can mean all of those things you listed. After all, every parent likes to feel that they were able to support their child in some way.

It upsets me that parents have to feel like they're not as good as others who can afford to (or not) spend so much money on a couple.

PinkFridge

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 12:27 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

Again, kol hakavod.
You're hinting at something really important: there needs to be respect between parents and children, and I'm not talking about respecting how your kids use the support money.
There needs to be a relationship of respect between parents and children long before, for who they are, and not dependent on some artificial societal requirement mold.

amother

Brickred

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 12:44 pm

I do not believe in a Kollel lifestyle or in parenting committing to 1 or 10K per month. When DH and I got married, in the last century, we both had jobs and were responsible for our own bills. (We basically had just wedding gifts, although our college was paid for and we started off with educations, jobs, and debt free)

That being said, I felt very much supported by both our families.
We did our laundry at my MILs (less about quarters and more about clean machines). We went to parents for YT and they always cooked a TON of extra to send home with us-and insisted on emptying their pantry and freezer as well. They also payed for our RH/YK seats at their shul, as we are their guests. But if we stay home, it is not that they are footing our bill.
My mom took me shopping for years, along with my sisters and got all of us new dresses for YT, and if we saw a coat or shoes or a sweater or two we liked, that too. My mom is still more than happy to take me and my girls to the store and pick out dresses with us and pay for all of them. To her it is a fun outing that she is happy to sponsor-more fun and not necessarily more expensive than great adventure.
They still call from the supermarket to see if there is anything we need or if we want whatever is listed in the store flyer. They will drop it off at my house and they will not take money. My father’s favorite phrase alternates between “better you should get it than the government” or “I would rather give it with a warm hand that a cold hand and see you enjoy it”. They also say the $ means more to you now than when we are 120 (and you are in your 90’s) and you have already payed off your mortgage, payed tuition, and paid for wedding.

We were expecting to work and pay our own way, but there was never a question that if we needed help or food for Shabbos that they would absolutely step up. (Although if it was ongoing ithey would possibly recommend to either cut spending, increase our salaries, or consult a financial advisor for guidance )

I am well aware or how lucky we are with both our parents and in-laws. I am sure that I am the very fortunate exception and not the rule. I appreciate them and don’t take it for granted.

I am also aware that we are not a large family and while my parents and in-laws are not wealthy people they are comfortable and have some give. I am sure there are many people who would love to do the same but either they barely cover their bills or they were blessed with a dozen children, and it just doesn’t go as far.

B”H I will do the same for my children.

amother

NeonGreen

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 1:33 pm

amother Begonia wrote:

You have to admit that that's not really the norm.
Parents usually pay for all the shtufir unless they're mamish dirt poor and their daughter worked at a good job for a few years.
We don't have the official expectation of support like in the litvish/yeshivish world. But majority of the "good boys" aim to sit in kollel at least for a few years. The difference is that the shidduch usually doesn't depend on a number - whether it's learning years or amount of support committed to.

My brothers, all married for different amount of years, are still in kollel and their wives are working their tails off while having babies almost every year. They're the chinyukish sheltered kind.
Obviously many regular chassidish people go to work but a large amount don't.

amother

Begonia

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 1:39 pm

amother NeonGreen wrote:

Me paying for my stuff isn't the norm, I know that. I just like the idea of it. My parents aren't dirt poor but I have 8 other siblings who I don't believe have to suffer for the fact that their sister is getting married.

It would be nice if that wasn't seen as so unusual.

Also, the specific chassidus where I come from doesn't promote kollel at all.

The average boy either goes out to work or is in kollel for max a year.

My husband is the 5th in his family and not a single brother went to kollel after their wedding.

And the hug is for...? I like when people who hug my posts tell me what they dislike about it.

amother

Yarrow

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 2:23 pm

This is such a charged topic. I selected "yes" because they are newlyweds, so why not?

The way I teach my sons is that they should plan to learn in kollel for 5 years. During those 5 years, they should solidify in their minds what they are looking to do when the time is up. They should take on opportunities that would lead them in that direction; e.g., tutoring bochurim, becoming rosh chaburah, etc.

This is important because when you tell a boy that he is not going to learn in kollel, they lose interest in yeshiva. You tell a boy he should aspire to be an accountant. Suddenly he is not interested in sweating over the tosfos.

Alas, raising good boys is a huge challenge nowadays!

amother

NeonYellow

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 2:29 pm

amother NeonGreen wrote:

There are plenty of girls who give their salary to their parents or use their salary to pay part of the wedding.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 2:37 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

Why plan to learn for five years? That’s such a long time and so arbitrary yet specific.

amother

Yarrow

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 2:39 pm

On a personal note, I grew up in a home where my father was in kollel for many years, and I resented it. I wanted to get married and my husband will support the family. Oh how I wished.

But when I was in shidduchim, people told me that if I say I want a "working boy", that looks bad. I will just get a third-class boy. Instead, I got the "top learner" that my father "hand-picked" for me.

Fast forward 13 years. I am still supporting my husband. It's, what can I say, complicated.

I am sure many other girls/women share my experience, which is why this yacht won't reverse course so easily.

amother

Peony

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 2:59 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

Maybe they should then put their lives on hold till the 5 year mark. Because this is the mindset that creates so much of the hardships. The wife is left to carry the burden of parnossoh alone, all the while being pregnant, raising children and running the house. When the dh finally is ready to help with the income, he already has a family to support while having no work skills.

This then sets them up to be financially disadvantaged and lots of hardships.

amother

Arcticblue

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 3:50 pm

amother Lightpink wrote:

Absolutely, but I personally have seen many who choose to commit to support, then have to either renege or go deeper into debt.
Just like the school system that "forces us to lie" (I reference the thread on Monsey Vaad on technology) if we want our kids learning in a good yeshiva, the shadchan forces us to make financial commitments beyond our current salaries if we want the good boys as sons in law. If it hasnt happened to you, you are lucky. Its happened to plenty of people I know.
At the end of the day, you are right, no one is forcing us.

A shadchan cannot force you to do anything.
And the good boys won't make demands of you.

My parents had extreme financial hardship (unemployment during the 2008 recession, high medical bills etc) and there was no way they could support. They were open with the shadchanim about that, and yes there was lots of fear mongering about how I would never get married.

My parent's rag told they they cannot commit to something they would not be able to do.

My friend's mother-in-law ended up making my shidduch to her sister's nephew. I think there was some sort of misunderstanding, because she did not relate to my in-laws that my parents cannot support.

At some point in the dating process, I mentioned to my future dh that my parents have no money and cannot support. After that date, his parents freaked out and wanted to call off the whole thing. They really expected support.

My DH spoke to his Rosh yeshiva who told him not to give up a shidduch because of money. And the rest is history BH.

DH learned in kollel for about 7 years and they were beautiful years.

I have several brother who are/were in kollel. They make zero demands of their in laws.

My mom was actually once talking to a shadchan about one of my brothers and she asked my mom what are her demands. My mom said nothing. It was hilarious because the shadchan literally became speechless and hung up.

amother

Bone

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 5:14 pm

amother Peony wrote:

this was my experience. so how do all these kollel guys that left yeshiva manage to do it? (buying houses new sheitals etc?)
my husband was learning in the beg. no skill set, but here we are with a few kids and my husband is only now starting to build up his business

amother

Freesia

Fri, Aug 18 2023, 5:37 pm

My parents didn't have my inlaws did, but didn't publicize.

I worked and dh learned for a few months. Bh I had a great job. Dh went to school and inlaws paid. They also paid our rent when I was laid off during maternity leave.

Inlaws also helped all kids buy a house. They helped us recently when we had an emergency house expense.

When my inlaws were marrying off their gorls they refused to do any shidduch that insisted on support. They prefer to give as they please.

My dd is in shidduchim. Dh and I believe that it's a man's job to support the family, women can work if possible. My dd has a great degree. She is only interested in boys that plan in supporting the family, so that she doesn't have the responsibility. We aren't in the same financial position as my inlaws, but hope to be able to help out occasionally if needed.