We need advice that works, please help!!

718

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 7:14 pm

First order of the week- post on imamother.
My son is 3 and an only child.
He has been impossible lately and I am at my wits end.
We need parenting classes I know but please help me now!
We are very loving and give him all our attention and energy. We also dont let him get away with anything, we punish him if necessary. Heres what happened this weekend:
Friday afternoon: dh and I were in our rrom resting and I went to check on him after short time. He flooded the entire kitchen. The floor had about 3" of water, table and counter tops, fridge top and oven had about 2" of water. The top cabinets were all wet, when I opened it the insides were wet as well. I was in such shock. This already happend once or twice (although not this bad) he would play with the water in the sink and was punished and warned and he knows very well not to do it. He also spilled all my spcies in the sink.
I was so angry that I didnt punish him right away (or smack him which is what he really desreved). It took me an hour to clean up the place. Then I took him to his room told him that he knows hes not allowed to touch the spices and water, gave him smack on tushy and closed the door.
He wasnt crying and I dont think it was harsh enough.

Shabbos afternoon: went out for the meal and we walked home in the heat, I tried to tire him out as much as possible so he would nap. I lock him into his room until he falls asleep, this way he doesnt come out and I open it right after (lets not discuss this please, there was a whole other thread on this topic). Anyway he didnt fall asleep and unpacked his entire dresser. Also something he has done twice before and punished and knows better. He was bored or upset that he had to go to sleep. Anyway the place was turnd over, the entire floor was covered with clothing.

Seriously. What is an appropriate response to this behavior? He knows very well that hes not allowed to do this. He wasnt bored all day as we took him out and he played. He has plenty of toys to play with. I think he deserved a beating (just kidding) but some good petch!!
But Im sure there are other ways to deal with this.
Please help!!
Also, I was thinking about positive reinforcement which he gets a lot- what would that mean in this situation?
the questions is: WHAT WOULD YOU DO??

octopus

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 7:39 pm

I do not claim to be a parenting expert. that's number one.but I can offer my opinion. Number two- I don't know your child's personality, nor do I know yours, so ppl may give advice but it may not be shayach for you. So you need to be wise and pick and choose.

With that being said....welcome to parenthood! Your child is NORMAL and testing his boundaries and he is testing you! I ka'h have a very lively, smart, precocious three year old that is soon turning four (so that's my credentials! LOL

) so I feel like I just got out of that neck of the woods. It passes. It does. So take a deep breath.

I don't know your child's personality but mine used to do the exact opposite of whatever I said. So if I made a big deal about spilling spices or making mabuls (hey, you're not the only one!) he would laugh and do it even more. So if your kid is like this- don't give in to the drama. be very, very calm (it's hard!). You can tell your child, "mommy is very, very upset right now." You can even have him help clean it up- IF it's not going to cause more drama (I.e. splashing in the puddles and laughter- been there, done that). Otherwise straight to a (short) time out to get the child to calm down. Afterwards, you really should have a discussion about why mommy was so upset about the spices and the mabul. Your child is three- he most likely is capable of understanding a discussion- so use it to your advantage (versus two-year-olds who have much less understanding).

Do not set yourself up for failure. If the spices are in reaching distance of your child, move them to a higher shelf. Three year olds are too old to nap. I repeat. you are setting yourself up for failure. He took apart his room- on that, I don't blame him! he is too old to nap. So accept that it's a new era for the house on shabbos -it's hard to come to terms with, I know. It was hard for me. But he is just too old for it.

amother

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 8:00 pm

I will second that a 3 yr old is usually too old for a nap. unless he regularly takes a nap I think it was unreasonable to expect him to nap. me and my husband switch off napping. kids this age need to be watched. same for the rest time, you can not expect a 3 yr old not to get into trouble. he knows you are napping and he is prob bored, understimulated being left alone, so he is making trouble. thats normal for a 3 yr old.

I think another consequence can be dealt for example say we are having ice cream for dessert but since you did something that mommy said you are not allowed to do and you knew this, you can not have. and proceed to eat ice cream without him. or s/t along those lines. say next time we have ice cream I hope you can have and a few days later (assuming nothing drastic occured) have ice cream with him. this is to show him THERE WILL BE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES if he does serious mischeif.

and in addition to that in the future you can not leave a child that young alone for that long and expect him to behave. a few min while u r in the bathroom or while u run to the other room and do some laundry etc is fine but for a whole tiem while u r resting is just too much in my opinion.

mindyme

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 8:44 pm

This is a hard new stage, but it will pass.
You really can not leave a child alone. My dh and I still switch off napping, even though our kids are getting older. We feel that they need a parent around.
The trouble he got into, as frustrating as it may be, is very normal for kids this age. They are much too young to think about or remember consequences, esp. when opportunity for "fun" predsents itself and mommy and totty aren't around.
I think any consequence/punishment for bad behaviour needs to be done soon after the act, def the same day. As I said, kids have short memories at this age, and he won't connect today's "no whatever" to yesterday's actions. Remember, he thinks of it as fun, not evil. He only knows that Mommy is mad. Which is imp, but understand that he's not doing it to be BAD, as an older child may.
Breathe, stay calm, and try to smile!!!

718

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 10:10 pm

Thanks for all your posts. He doesn't nap normally but we had an event motsei shabbos and he was supposed to go (he didn't in the end, I told him he's punished and he can't go but I doubt he even chaped).
So that was the reason for trying to nap him, he does nap a lot of times late shabbos afternoon.
I hear that maybe those good days are over

my big question is: isn't chinuch supposed to be teachinv them what they may do or not do? If u watch them like a hawk all the time then technically that's not teaching them.
The kid knows very well he was doing something wrong
the crazy things is that during terrible twos he would do such thi ga but he had no clue what he's doing. Now he does things and smirks, he enjoys defying me. I can't explain it but he became so rebelious

mindyme

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 10:20 pm

The mitzvah of Chinuch is alot of things. Mostly, I think, it's teaching about the mitzvos and how to keep them, instilling a love (and fear) of Hashem, and a love for Yiddishkeit in general.
Teaching proper behaviour IS a part of that, in terms of teaching to be a mentch.
"watching him like a hawk" is not the goal here. Rather, it's spending time with the child, teaching through example of how to act/react to life.
For example, let the child pour a cup of water from a pitcher, under supervision. When he spills, show him how to clean up. This will teach that spills happen, and this is how we deal with it.
Small children need to be told things MANY times before they internalize them. Also, some kids like to test boundaries by seeing if you have the same reaction each time. That is why being consistent is so imp.
It would be a good idea for you (and all of us!) to speak to a mentor/older mom/rebbetzin about these kinds of things. The parenting challenges only increase as they grow, b"H, and it helps to have s/o, who knows you and your family, to bounce things off of.

life'sgreat

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 10:33 pm

718 wrote:

my big question is: isn't chinuch supposed to be teachinv them what they may do or not do? If u watch them like a hawk all the time then technically that's not teaching them.
The kid knows very well he was doing something wrong
the crazy things is that during terrible twos he would do such thi ga but he had no clue what he's doing. Now he does things and smirks, he enjoys defying me. I can't explain it but he became so rebelious

Leaving them to their own devices doesn't teach them anything either. There needs to be a balance, but clearly, if you'd be around and stop the flooding for example, he'd learn again and again, not to do it.

One method that I find helps a lot is that the child needs to help/do the cleanup so that he knows what he did. My son (and nephews) spilled a big bottle of spring water today on the kitchen table, into a plant, the floor etc... (I know, doesn't compare to the flooding that you had) and they had to all wipe it up themselves. Every kid had to take a towel and wipe it (while I stood there with scary eyes) and trust me, it wasn't fun for them anymore.

I do it with many things my son does. If he wrecks his room, he has to put things back in order. Even if it means that a. it'll be terribly messy even when he's done and b. if he's not capable to even do it on his own, I sit there and tell him what he needs to do next. He thinks twice of doing the same thing again.

This is just what I do. I hope you find the right answers for your son (he sounds like a ball of fun too!).

EvenI

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 11:14 pm

life'sgreat wrote:

718 wrote:

How do you get them to comply when you "make them" clean up after themselves and the like? Likewise, for those who use time outs, how do you actually get the kid to stay where you want them to. What if he just says "no" and doesn't do it?

chocolatemilk

Sat, Jul 24 2010, 11:50 pm

dd is almost 3 and started waking up earlier in the mornings
its hard for me to get up so early but u cant leave kids this age alone at all!
recently she smeared my make up all over the place
dumped out the fish food all over the bathroom floor
and smeared teething gel on the walls
and that just the out of ordinary things that she does
(every morning she spills her cereal all over and more...)
the answer is u cant leave them alone
its hard to adjust to
and I'm not there yet but I'm trying...

octopus

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 5:39 am

718, when I was going through this with my son (the "defiance", the thoroughly enjoying of doing what they are not supposed to be doing), I spoke to a lot of ppl in chinuch. In my particular case, I have many family members that are excellent mechanchim as well. So they know me and my child. I was told that this is the age for that. Yes, at 3 they start answering back, doing things the exact opposite of what you say- that this is all part and parcel of three year old behavior. (no one ever told me about the terrible 3's!).

The best piece of advice I EVER got was from a parent of an aggressive child: when giving discipline you have to keep in mind that this child of yours has so much good potential and when he/she grow up they are going to be an amazing adult! So you will get past this. You will not blow things out of proportions out in a panic because you are so afraid of what this child is going to grow up to be like. This child is going to be an amazing adult. Everybody loves an adult with tons of spunk-maybe not so much a child with spunk (which is a shame), but this is an amazing child with so much potential! - Children are very sensitive and they perceive things believe it or not. If you perceive them as "Bad" or a "handful" - they will live up to it. Absolutely 100%. If you have a positive vibe going on, they will pick up on it too. so it's really important for you to have positive thoughts in mind when giving discipline.

I feel, as parents , we have a responsibility to guide our children. That's what chinuch is. At every stage of life though, a child can have limitations, and you have to understand that. So parents should not set up children for failure. As far as the spices- you have to view it as something beyond your child controlling himself with - he is only three. Therefore you should keep it out of reach or locked up. Don't set him up for a failure. When we dole out punishments, we have to think to ourselves " does this punishment help guide him to learn the right thing?" If it's beyond your child's understanding, that clues you in that perhaps your child was in a situation that set him up for a failure (I.e. not being watched by an adult, things in reach that shouldn't have been).

Also, it's important to know when to pick and choose your battles. It's okay to let some things slide. I only use time-outs when my son "transgresses" a cardinal sin- like hurting another child or trying to hit mommy. Those things ended real fast because he knew I only do timeout for those kinds of things. I don't overuse it or overabuse it. For everything else there are gentler things you can do.

and praise, praise, praise! when you see your child acting wonderfully. Tell your child he makes you so happy!

Tamiri

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 5:50 am

Dear 718,

Your DS is THREE years old. Not thirteen. Not ten. Not even seven. Three is still a baby. He needs to be watched and cared for - he's not responsible for his actions. YOU are. You are the parents. You cannot leave a 3 yo to be on his own while you go for a nap. He sounds curious and bright and, frankly, bored. Bored children who have lively imaginations can get into major trouble. As others wrote, be thankful all he did was play with water. What if he had gotten into his head to find out how matches work? He could have burnt the house down. He doesn't need to be punished. He needs to be watched, hard as that may be. A 3 year old isn't bar-da'at: he doesn't have the capacity to make educated decisions. He'll get there, IY"H, but it takes time. For the time being, you are his decision-maker. While you are there next to him.
If you need some time off from him, pay a sitter to watch him. Do, as you mentioned, find a parenting class. You will all benefit from it.
It's hard to be a 1st time parent. You are learning the most important job in life. Spend some time getting good tips and life will probably be much easier all around.

Good luck!

c.c.cookie

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 6:06 am

Quote:

my big question is: isn't chinuch supposed to be teachinv them what they may do or not do? If u watch them like a hawk all the time then technically that's not teaching them.

Yes, that is the point of chinuch. But we don't expect a 3 year old to be "mechunach" yet. Our ultimate goal is that as he gets older he will learn what is and isn't allowed, but he doesn't necessarily know that now (which doesn't mean you can't punish for things he does wrong.) At this point, a lot of your chinuch is just setting yourself up better technically. I think part of the problem is that you expect too much from him. He might be exceptionally bright and mature, or it might be that you don't have anyone else to compare him to, but you have to realize that he's only three. For three, what you are expecting from him (to keep himself entertained, unsupervised, and not get into trouble) is too much.

Mini Cookie

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 7:50 am

just want to stress on the following

-join a parenting class, now there's the great new option of joining by phone in the comfort of your home! Take advantage of that. Find someone that matches your personality type & make sure that your DH is on the same page.

-watch Supernanny episodes http://abc.go.com/watch/supernanny/SH559078 . I really picked up a load of great parenting tips from her & the correct way of doing time out.

-be firm not mean. The punishment has to match the crime. He should clean up the mess he made (with an adults help of course).

-A 3 year old should never be left unattented. My 3 1/2 year old is extremly tame & knows how to keep herself busy but I would never, ever leave her alone. She already attempted to "bencht lecht" by herself & got a burn Sad

& tried plugging in my cell phone recharger & got a shock (BH nothing serious just a horrific scare) these things happened while I was busy in the kitchen not napping. Hashem Yishmoreinu!

Good Luck!