Emunas Chachomim- when they seem so wrong?

saw50st8

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 8:51 am

HindaRochel wrote:

I think that basically you choose your Rav and only leave that Rav if your sechel tells you this is not al pi din (his decisions in general, not on a particular issue).

So some of your own learning and knowledge has to be in there...

We have Rabbi Riskin, who we don't see very often, but we would trust him absolutely, and Rabbi Chaim Wasserman originally from Passaic, easier to get and same deal. We also trust and use Rabbi Markowitz here on the Yishuv. I've also used Rav Bachko. I'm spelling his name wrong I know.

If I were dealing with a specific issues that our Rabbi(s) couldn't handle we would ask those we trust to recommend someone.

I would basically abide by what the Rabbi had to say unless I really had the feeling they were off...but then if I knew the answer to the question why would I ask it?

Rabbi Wasserman was my HS teacher! What an awesome man who opened my eyes to the true scope of halacha.

Marina, I sort of have the same issue that you do. But I buy into the premise/general system, so I follow the system, even if I doubt some of the details. I also have some great rabbonim who interpret halacha to the "now" rather than to the "then" while still following the guidelines within halacha.

baba

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:10 am

marina wrote:

Emunas Chachomim is a much bigger question for me. Yes, of course it is about how rabbis who behave poorly can still be called rabbis, but it is more than that. It is about how do you know that they are giving over ratzon Hashem to you instead of some social norm from the 1800s. How do you really know what Hashem wants from you? Because you trust your rabbis? The rabbis of the Shulchan Aruch? How do you trust them if they have clearly written some outrageous things?

I think it is up to us to try and find out as much as possible and use our own intelligence. If I have a question for a rav, I will have looked it up first and know more or less what's going on, before I go to him. Yes, it helps that dh is learned and he will understand the significance of who is being quoted in this instance (for example is it an achron halacha always tends to follow or is this a sudden exception). I am not talking about simply looking something up in the mishne brura. Yes, one would need a wider understanding of halacha.
As it is, my rav's goal is that every person will be able to decide for themselves eventually. He also almost never answers a question black and white (unless it really is a black and white question), but will always leave in some kind of element so that ultimately it is your decision.

As for OP's question, I think it's clear I'm with Friedasima. In general, I find the word gadol gets thrown around very quickly and is always accompanied by the fact that he cant be questioned. Well, I live in a society where we can question everything, including tanach, so kal vechomer a rav. I find that the status Gedolim get nowadays seems more of one worthy of a navi (and lets remember how they were treated), not a rav. Gadols can and do make mistakes (just think of the chassidische rebbis that advised their congregation to stay in Poland during the war) and yes, who am I to judge, but that's when it comes to any human being. That doesnt mean it's wrong to question. And if your questioning leads to your not fully trusting that PERSON's judgment, then find a different rav.

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:36 am

Wow, Seraph, that is food for thought.

So here's what I think:

1. There were many people who were considered 'bad' who were proven to have been even worse in historical hindsight, and it just goes to show how our chachomim can see ahead e.g. Moses Mendlesohn, communism (the Chofetz Chaim said the Jews should physically fight the Communists even if a million Jews would be killed), various false messiahs etc.

2. There was not such good communication. Many times those 'warring' against eg the early chassidim, the GRA, I've forgotten the name of that gadol with the amulets etc, had never met them and were fed rumours about what they were doing. Or they were genuinely against what their followers were doing in the said gadol's name. It's not like today when you can find out exactly what they mean, travel, send an email....

3. Sometimes there is a new movement and people are suspicious until it is proven by the test of time, but it doesn't mean everything is okay once time has elapsed - I can think of more examples like the mussar movement, BY etc.

saw50st8

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:40 am

Seraph, to a certain extent, we decide our own history.

If the Baal Shem Tov didn't have many followers, he would probably have remained an "apikorus" forever. We remember whats in history books and that is always skewed.

Shalhevet, about point #2 - I'm not sure communication/rumor status is truly better nowadays. I think askanim hide a lot of facts from rabbonim and skew information to them. About point #1, I would say sheer dumb luck sometimes. Some people who appear awful turn out great and vice versa. Sometimes you just pick the right side.

Seraph

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 9:52 am

shalhevet wrote:

So if I lived during the time of the ramchal and was his follower, even though he was put in cherem, would I have been wrong? Or right?

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:14 am

I think if he would have been your rav you would have been right, but if your rav would have opposed him, you would have been wrong to follow him.

I also think this thing about following a rav/rebbe somewhere 500 or 50,000 miles away is new. A simple person lived in a place, there was a mara d'asra (rav of that place) and that was that. Sometimes there might have been a chassidic rav and a non-chassidic rav in the same town. So that preempts your next question of what if you had an anti-Ramchal rav and you switched to a pro one.

PinkFridge

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:30 am

Interesting thread. I just got here from the link on the proposed new forum.
OK, I'm a simple sort. To me, Hashem created this system with the need for mesorah programmed in. We have to have teachers, mentors. That it is getting harder to respect them is a function of the lengthiness of galus. Everything is getting muddier. Not only is it easier to be a cynic - we live in an era of leitzanus - but too many people by their actions are making it hard even for those of us who are fighing it.
But the theory of emunas chachamim? Valid. And still possible in practice.

Chayalle

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:31 am

shalhevet wrote:

2. There was not such good communication. Many times those 'warring' against eg the early chassidim, the GRA, I've forgotten the name of that gadol with the amulets etc, had never met them and were fed rumours about what they were doing. Or they were genuinely against what their followers were doing in the said gadol's name. It's not like today when you can find out exactly what they mean, travel, send an email....

I think you are talking about the Baal Hatanya, who was (correct me if I'm wrong) actually the founder of Lubavitch. I have heard it say that if the Gra and the Tanya had met, Moshiach would have had to come such was their greatness.

Keep in mind that Gedolim who oppose each other often oppose a viewpoint not a person. For example, the Satmar Rebbe disagreed with a psak by R' Moshe Feinstein. He disagreed with his psak, but he held R' Moshe in the highest esteem. He sent Satmar Rabbanim to argue his psak with him and they couldn't win the arguement. When they returned to the Satmar Rebbe, he said something to the effect of "Didn't I warn you that he is a formidable Talmid Chacham?"

An ancestor of mine was a big misnagid (against chassidus) who held Rabbi Chaim Sanzer in great esteem as a huge Talmid Chacham. He did not change his stance on chassidus, though.

We have a concept of "eilu v'eilu divrei elokim chaim" - even when Gedolim oppose each other, each viewpoint is the Dvar Hashem even when they are opposing.

sneakermom

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:31 am

I am personally dissapointed by the supposed big leaders of today. For the most part they are self serving, self indulgent, not in reality, and did I say this before....self absorbed.

I do find a lot of ordinary people who I really respect, or ordinary Rabbanim who are worthy of being called the name Rabbi. They are aidel, kind, compassionate, smart and do chesed.

But the movers and shakers....they make me cringe.

Isn't it known that in the time of moshiach there will be no leaders? I don't even waste my time with following the latest shenanigans of the leaders. For the most part they are either being manipulated by the masses or they are manipulating the masses. It's awful.

For me emunas chachamim come from past leaders. If Rav Moshe said it...to me it is truth. I need nothing more. If the Lubavichter Rebbe said it I believe it too. You have to observe a person and see their gadlus in knowledge, their humility, and desire to do good....then you develop trust.

What I see today is the opposite of that. So I'll leave it at there.

PinkFridge

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 10:52 am

sneakermom wrote:

It is awesome to have such respect, even from past leaders. The problem is that when it comes to practical application, we need living leaders. (There was a GREAT article by Rabbi Shmuel Bloom in Yated about this not too long after Succos.) B"H, sounds like you have. I think we need to go back to having local rabbanim and supporting and respecting them.

grin

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:57 pm

I love the discussion that's going on here - looks really fruitful to me; I have nothing to add personally except to say "carry on". AS an aside, I feel that I must clarify one thing.

marina wrote:

grin wrote:

but I feel that I must point out that the Lubavicher Rebbe has never ever said a negative word about any other Jew

You are misinformed. If you are interested, you can PM me.

I did and this is what she answered:

marina wrote:

The same Rebbe who spoke about the importance of Ahavas Yisroel and considered each Jew as precious as a diamond, apparently also stressed to his chassidim that "our poorest surpasses their best" (unzer ziburis is besser vi zeier idis) when comparing Lubavitcher chassidim to other chassidim and other groups of Orthodox Jews.

IMO, this is a far cry from LH about any specific jew or even sect - it's merely pride in who you are.

I therefore still stand solidly by what I said before: the Lubavicher Rebbe has never ever said a negative word about any other Jew, no matter what.

grin

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:00 pm

sneakermom wrote:

a gadol isn't necessarily a "mover and shaker" - in fact, he probably isn't in that he often shuns publicity as well as politics.

we can consider ourselves blessed if the movers and shakers would themselves listen to a real gadol of their choice.

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:00 pm

Woah, what a shocking quote!
It means basically a Chabad murderer is better than a Bobov/Ger/Vizhnitz gadol.

Being proud of who you are (except maybe in Chabad and a few, few other shittas), doesn't mean thinking your minhag is best for everyone. Actually most others are humble enough to FORBID a change in shitta (yes, including changing for their shitta!) except with a VERY good reason.

The rebbe btw, did say to keep the minhagim and not switch (though it seems for the shabbes candles for little girls he did say to switch). Now, what his followers did after he passed, that's another story...

freidasima

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:00 pm

I think we have to define what one means by "emunas chachomim". The term is getting thrown around but it means different things to different people.

Mesorah, of course there is a need and a built in place for mesorah, but who says that X's mesorah is the correct one? If it's my mother's and father's mesorah that's one thing, but I don't "have" a rov in the sense of one person I would go to for all my shaylahs. Most MOs are like that from what I know. You want expert knowledge, you go to an expert on X. We live in a global village, telephone, internet, no problem to find the expert even if he is 1000 km away. As long as he is online or has a phone. Or you go to him physically.

Shal is right, ths business of following someone far away is really new relatively with the opening of a whole new world. But it's the way it is and the way it will be unless we go back to the caveman age. And when people followed thier moro deatro once upon a time, if they didn't like what he said, well, that's what started so many people moving towards the haskala, they were sick of their little local not to knowledgeable moro deatro who couldn't answer their questions and give them a way to be Jewish but live somewhat at least in this world or rather the world of that time.

As for trusting, someone mentioned it's like choosing a doctor and trusting him. Boy you don't know the medical system. Trust a DOCTOR? Are you crazy? you learn the inyan yourself, you shop around, you get loads of opinions and then YOU make the decision based on what you hear and what you learned. To say that for everying in my health I would put myself in one person's hands?
Never in this lifetime.

gryp

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 1:27 pm

Quote:

Let's see a source for that, please. I'd like to read that in context.