Emunas Chachomim- when they seem so wrong?

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:15 pm

Gedolei Yisroel have to be given their utmost respect whether or not he is your Godol/Rebbe/Rov/Rosh Yeshiva. As long as he's accepted by Klal Yisroel you're not allowed to be mezalzel in him. You don't necessarily have to follow his shita or ask him advice, but this does not give you any permission to talk against him.

Emunas Chachomim (I think) is having emunah in your Rebbe/Rov/Rosh Yeshiva/Godol. Whatever they say, to believe with "emunas chachomim".

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:20 pm

freidasima wrote:

Ruchel, guess what.
You don't "have to" anything.
You can decide of your own free will that the surgey is too risky, isn't worth it, that you don't belive that the doctor can really help and you can decide to do nothing, go home and enjoy the time you have left.

Lot's of people do that.
It's called "free choice".

If you do get treatment or surgery you won't have a say in what happens, you'll follow the protocol.

Halachically it would be a shaila to not go for treatment. Also if a crisis strikes you in the hospital you may not have a say in what happens next.

saw50st8

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:21 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

You mean like when people try to discredit Rav Henkin? Or Rav Tendler? Or even Rabbi Weiss?

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:29 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

The same Rebbe who spoke about the importance of Ahavas Yisroel and considered each Jew as precious as a diamond, apparently also stressed to his chassidim that "our poorest surpasses their best" (unzer ziburis is besser vi zeier idis) when comparing Lubavitcher chassidim to other chassidim and other groups of Orthodox Jews.

Let's see a source for that, please. I'd like to read that in context.

She posted about it on her blog several years ago. She got it from this source. My Hebrew is bad, perhaps someone who's Hebrew is better could tell us a bit about this, as well as what this was in response to.

http://chabadlibrary.org/books.....d7%aa

Me I'm not Lubavitch even though I'm doing Chitas (okay, I missed doing Tanaya today) but that is just to learn and grow. Neither defending or disparaging. Perhaps someone can clarify though.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:39 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

You mean like when people try to discredit Rav Henkin? Or Rav Tendler? Or even Rabbi Weiss?

In general talking against any Orthodox Rov or Godol or being disrespectful to them is included in the above mentioned prohibition. But this doesn't mean that we have to follow their shittos.

gryp

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:51 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

Let's see a source for that, please. I'd like to read that in context.

Thanks, I'll have to look at it later on when the kids are sleeping.

Aylat

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:36 pm

Seraph wrote:

So, I have a question to add to the mix. Rav Nachman was considered lots of bad things during his day, as was the baal shem tov, as was the ramchal, and were put in cherem (some) by the rabbanim of the time. But now, they're pretty much all considered gedolim. So maybe one person who is considered an apikores today will be considered a gadol in 100 years?

This is exactly the type of thing I thought of when I read the original question - this issue, of when gedolim/rabbanim appear to so fundamentally disagree (and not just that, but believe the other is invalis/apikorus) has happened many times throughout our history. Shalhevet and Chaylizi mentioned other examples, and if you think of recent parshiot, even Yosef and the brothers could be seen in this light. If you were a member of the Jewish masses at that time (OK, I know there weren't really any) who would you believe? Yosef and his prophetic dreams, or the brothers and ther claims that he was a rodef (pursuer) trying to destroy the unity of the embryonic nation?

I've thought about this a lot, and I think that these questions can only be resolved with historical perspective. We see now that the chassidic derech is a valid form of avodat Hashem, that the mussar movement had a tremendous positive impact, that R' Eyebeshitz was not a follower of Shabbtai Tzvi. On the other hand, we see that the Reform movement and haskala moved people further away from Judaism.

I have a more patient attitude to these controversies, because I see that they happened in the past. they didn't destroy Judaism, our national unity or our mesorah, and we now have a consensus as to how to relate to the people involved. So in the present, what's my perspective? The same ways other posters decide - follow own Rav, use intelligence and own learning etc. But I try to have an added humility to my conclusions because I see how many storms have raged before and now calmed down.

gryp

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:08 pm

grin wrote:

I love the discussion that's going on here - looks really fruitful to me; I have nothing to add personally except to say "carry on". AS an aside, I feel that I must clarify one thing.

marina wrote:

grin wrote:

but I feel that I must point out that the Lubavicher Rebbe has never ever said a negative word about any other Jew

You are misinformed. If you are interested, you can PM me.

I did and this is what she answered:

marina wrote:

IMO, this is a far cry from LH about any specific jew or even sect - it's merely pride in who you are.

I therefore still stand solidly by what I said before: the Lubavicher Rebbe has never ever said a negative word about any other Jew, no matter what.

I checked out the original sources. Here are my thoughts:
1) The Rebbe wrote it five times in letters to individuals. Five times in 50+ years is not a lot of times to say something. Nevertheless, the Rebbe writes that this is a "pisgam hayadua" and I'm not clear if he was talking about the pisgam belonging to himself or the Rebbe before him who is usually being referred to when the Rebbe says: "the Rebbe."
2) It is in letters to individuals, replying to a letter asking for advice. The Rebbe did not broadcast it, never said it in a single sicha.
3) It seems to me that the reason for this "pisgam" is to express the advantage our derech has over others. It is not at all said in a way that's supposed to mean that anyone is less of a person or less of a Jew.

Aylat

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:16 pm

I do.
In theory.

Let me explain.

I think there is a Torah value in humbling ourselves before talmidei chachamim and gedolim, which includes humbling ourselves intellectually. Tehei morah rabach kemorah shamayim/you should be in awe of your Rav the same way you are in awe of Heaven (Pirkei Avot?) Just as I acknowledge my obvious limitations, included understanding, in comparison to the infinte G-d, I also acknowledge (lehavdil) my limited understanding of Torah and ratzon Hashem in comparison to a gadol who has spent his entire life dedicatedly learning Torah. And therefore if a gadol says something I disagree with, I don't assert my opinion as equal to his, instead I question and seek to understand the perspective he is coming from, and correct where my own values are not in consonance with Torah. I'm not talking about abdicating responsibility or being a brainwashed zombie, I mean intellectual honesty (acknowledging own opinion) AND humility (admitting that gadol's opinion is more likely to be correct).

The 'in theory' part of it is because I don't belong to a specific community who follows a specific Rav the whole time. Nor do I have personal contact with a gadol from whom I learn. (wish I did!) We do have a Rav, my husband's Rosh Yeshiva, who follows his Rav, and we ask him halachic questions - not just kitchen issues but also birth control, ma'aser. I do also think there is value in da'as Torah, not just for clearcut halachic issues, but also how to live a Torah life. For example, when we were deciding whether to get a car (I'm sure this is not such a big decision for most ppl, but it was for us, ok!) we discussed the pros and cons with a Rav as well as thinking it through ourselves.

saw50st8

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 4:25 pm

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

You mean like when people try to discredit Rav Henkin? Or Rav Tendler? Or even Rabbi Weiss?

In general talking against any Orthodox Rov or Godol or being disrespectful to them is included in the above mentioned prohibition. But this doesn't mean that we have to follow their shittos.

I'll believe it (in practice) when I see it (in practice).

poelmamosh

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 7:31 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

Let's see a source for that, please. I'd like to read that in context.

the quote is from the Previous Rebbe. The context is a letter written stating the importance of yeshiva bochurim learning in an integrated setting, ie nigleh (Talmud/halacha) and Chassidus, which elevates their level of learning vis a vis that of other yeshivas exponentially.

marina

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 11:27 pm

I really don't understand why, grin, you couldn't just have left it alone.

But now that you are bringing it up here, let me just say that I do not see how the Rebbe's comments can be interpreted as not insulting to other jews or not "negative" speech.

if you want to praise your own derech, explain the advantage your learning has over others, it's very possible to do that without saying something like "our worst is better than their best."

Enough with the apologetics. The rebbe did sometimes speak negatively about other Jews and this is just one example.

Last edited by marina on Mon, Dec 13 2010, 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 11:30 pm

poelmamosh wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

Let's see a source for that, please. I'd like to read that in context.

I would disagree with him, but basically then it seems that it is discussing a philosophy not learning; ie that learning Chassidus is better than not learning Chassidus.

It would be like saying a school which includes art education is better than that of a school which doesn't, because art brings so much knowledge with it that even the best learners in a non-art school are not as good as those in an art school. Not the people, but the educational benefits of the system.