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-> In the News
shalhevet
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 Thu, Oct 26 2006, 4:25 pm
| HappyPurim wrote: | RivkyaBatya, what is different between NY and Israel, I dont know, personally I was in isreal a year ago, I would be afraid to bring up my kids there too, you dont know the difference between a israeli (not frum jew) and a arab, I was scared to go anywhere around there....
I dont think my kids are more exposed to things, versus your kids in Israel |
From what I read on this forum, (apart from all the other reasons) I thank Hashem that I am bringing my kids up in Israel.
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TzenaRena
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Thu, Oct 26 2006, 4:35 pm
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mummyof6, sadly don't they have all these ills of society in Israel? Wasn't there a "Pride Parade" just recently in Yerushalayim/
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shalhevet
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Thu, Oct 26 2006, 4:38 pm
| SaraYehudis wrote: | | mummyof6, sadly don't they have all these ills of society in Israel? Wasn't there a "Pride Parade" just recently in Yerushalayim/ |
But, B"H my children aren't exposed to it. It's much easier here to bring children up without exposure to the media (and I am including newspapers, radio etc even in that definition)
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Flowerchild
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Thu, Oct 26 2006, 4:41 pm
| Quote: | SaraYehudis Posted:
mummyof6, sadly don't they have all these ills of society in Israel? Wasn't there a "Pride Parade" just recently in Yerushalayim |
I was thinking the same, I dont think israel is immune to these things, yet I do think the society as a whole is much better there then here. I hear a lot of good from my friends there and my sil.
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ShiraMiri
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Thu, Oct 26 2006, 6:21 pm
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I know being transgender is a complex topic - but in terms of gaining access to public restrooms (are locker rooms next?), what's to stop some pervert from claiming he is a transgendered male just to gain access to women-only areas? How can women be protected against this?
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anon
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Thu, Oct 26 2006, 6:42 pm
Forget about gay/transgender rights.
As a real woman, it is my RIGHT not to share a bathroom with a man. I don't care what surgeries he underwent, he's a man and he has no business in the ladies room. And as other ppl mentioned, I don't even want to think about the straight men who will use this as a peeping tom opportunity. I'm shocked and disgusted.
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gryp
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Thu, Oct 26 2006, 7:15 pm
anon 
thats just what I was thinking.
for heavens sake, let them make a 3rd restroom for people who dont know what they are. 
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mimsy7420
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Fri, Oct 27 2006, 10:06 am
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Is anybody who dresses like a girl allowed to use a woman's restroom, or do they legally have to have had the surgery?
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amother
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Fri, Oct 27 2006, 10:31 am
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I was once at a show & the line for the women's bathroom was very long. I was 8 mo pg at the time. The boyfriend of the waoman in front of me came over to her & said that there was no line for men's. She was afraid to go.Her bf said he would go in & announce that a womn was coming in.By that point I couldn't wait much longer, & told her & her friend that I would go with them. We did & the men didn't care.
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Ruchel
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Fri, Oct 27 2006, 10:52 am
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I didn't think the Dana International "case" was so common... yuch
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EgyptianPrincess
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Fri, Oct 27 2006, 11:58 am
[quote="SaraYehudis"] | red sea wrote: | On the bright side; at least everything will be halachically kosher  | " How kosher, without chupah v'kiddushin?" :
I rarely log in, but felt compelled too when I read the above account regarding the "frum boy", and the ensuing, misinformed "halachic" debate. I am appalled that no one has mentioned the severe Torah transgression of having such an operation. The Torah does not deny the reality of these conditions, but does require one to abstain from the behaviors associated with it. This is a true test, and if our Creator prohibited the behaviors then He is telling us that we have the ability to withstand the test.
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DefyGravity
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Fri, Oct 27 2006, 12:06 pm
I'm pretty sure that Red Sea's comment was meant to be taken as tongue in cheek.
(Get it - he's a guy and she's a girl, so technically there's no gay act occuring).
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mimsy7420
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Fri, Oct 27 2006, 12:22 pm
[quote="EgyptianPrincess"] | SaraYehudis wrote: | | red sea wrote: | | On the bright side; at least everything will be halachically kosher | " How kosher, without chupah v'kiddushin?" :
I rarely log in, but felt compelled too when I read the above account regarding the "frum boy", and the ensuing, misinformed "halachic" debate. I am appalled that no one has mentioned the severe Torah transgression of having such an operation. The Torah does not deny the reality of these conditions, but does require one to abstain from the behaviors associated with it. This is a true test, and if our Creator prohibited the behaviors then He is telling us that we have the ability to withstand the test. |
Of course there are severe Torah transgression from having such an operation, I don't think anyone disputed that.
Do you think we are stupid that we thought that castrating yourself was halachically permissable?
I'm sorry, did you miss seeing a bashing circle for an already very unfortunate situation?
I think the general consensus was posters did not know what to think. Do we laugh? Do we cry? Do we do both? I know who the boy is, and its a very very sad situation. I feel bad for his wife (now ex-wife). I feel bad for his parents. I feel bad for his family. His nieces and his nephews.
And we are not even talking about a homo-s-xual man here. We are talking way beyond that. Unfortunately, if he had just come out of the closet people might not have been so shocked. This though, no one expected. And there are for sure other people like him in the jewish community. And they WILL be miserable for the rest of their lives. It's very easy to yell "halacha" "halacha" when you are not in someone elses shoes. Do you think he is unaware of the halachic ramifications of his decision? He is aware. He has been learning and digging to find some loopholes for himself. The loopholes he did find were very interesting. They are obviously not mainstream, and not accepted by the general community. BUT we are talking about a human being here, and telling him, sorry, there's nothing we can do for you- you just have to be miserable for the rest of your life, is fine and dandy, but realistically you can not be SHOCKED and APPALLED that someone wants to find happiness. And I am not saying at all what he is doing is right. Far from it. I just happen to know him, and another boy who has homosexual "feelings" and I don't understand why he can't just be happy with his wife and forget about it, I don't understand at all. But why should I? How do I know what it is like to live with a s-xual deviance in the frum world. It must be hell.
It's just a very sad situation. Very very sad.
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ButterflyGarden
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Sat, Oct 28 2006, 2:30 pm
| Quote: | RivkyaBatya, what is different between NY and Israel, I dont know, personally I was in isreal a year ago, I would be afraid to bring up my kids there too, you dont know the difference between a israeli (not frum jew) and a arab, I was scared to go anywhere around there....
I dont think my kids are more exposed to things, versus your kids in Israel |
First off, the last "pride parade" scheduled for Yerushalayim was cancelled as will IY"H the coming one.
Second, I agree that most people who live here can tell between arab and Jew.
Third, we lived in NYC for 1 year and I've never in my life been exposed to such filth on every level. In Israel it is common for 6 year old to take a bus alone. Would you let your 6 year old ride the subway alone? Why not? He'll only be exposed to whores, druggies, gay people, and who knows what else on the way home from chader. Oh, and don't forget the gangs and pickpockets and other such friendly fellows. I'd never seen a man dress as a woman before NY. Nor had I seen such total disrespect for women and for modesty. Either half of NY is too poor to afford the second half of their clothing or else they just forgot to finish getting dressed! I can't believe that that many people feel comfortable with such little clothing in public.
Fourth, have you read the US headlines lately? I logged on to a website to read the news the other night and read about a man who killed and dismembered his girlfriend, a 14 year old who stabbed his twin to death in the heart over a pack of gum, and a few stories about s-xual predators. What are american mothers teaching their children? And why should good Jewish children have to be exposed to this stuff?
I'm not saying Israel is perfect, I have my list of grievances, however, it's ALOT easier to bring up your children in a place where you can protect them from these things.
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EgyptianPrincess
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Sun, Oct 29 2006, 2:25 pm
["]I'm pretty sure that Red Sea's comment was meant to be taken as tongue in cheek. quote="DefyGravity
Yes she made herself quite clear.
Sorry that my quotations were not clear. I was actually quoting SaraYehudis. I was not referring to any post in particular. Rather, I was referring to the facetious debate that could intentionally be misleading for those readers of the post[which was posted on a PUBLIC forum viewable to all] that are not as privileged as you, and are unaware of the Torah's standings on such issues. I was disturbed that this was not clarified outright.
P.S. And as for:
(Get it - he's a guy and she's a girl, so technically there's no gay act occuring).[/quote]
No, no gay act,just the transgression of a castrated man being with a [legitimate] Bat Yisrael.
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EgyptianPrincess
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Sun, Oct 29 2006, 2:43 pm
only1:
I hope my reply to Defy will clarify my standing and the reasoning behind my post.
"but realistically you can not be SHOCKED and APPALLED that someone wants to find happiness." From where did you derive this? Please reread my post - I stated that I was appalled that the Torah transgression of committing such a behavior was not [and know I add - clearly] stated.
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TzenaRena
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Sun, Oct 29 2006, 2:59 pm
| EgyptianPrincess wrote: | only1:
I hope my reply to Defy will clarify my standing and the reasoning behind my post.
"but realistically you can not be SHOCKED and APPALLED that someone wants to find happiness." From where did you derive this? Please reread my post - I stated that I was appalled that the Torah transgression of committing such a behavior was not [and know I add - clearly] stated. |
the reason I wrote "without chupah v'kiddushin" is because as you pointed out correctly, no Rav would perform such a marriage, even though the "transposed" person is in reality a man, for it is ossur for this person to marry a bas yisrael. Thank you for explaining it clearly.
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Tefila
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Sun, Oct 29 2006, 3:36 pm
In theory how would a rav know talking about logistics. Say you have a bt of 30 yrs old or older will now one of the questions he or she will be asked is, has this always been your gender
How tragic how our world has fallen 
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chen
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Mon, Oct 30 2006, 1:08 pm
| only1 wrote: |
you can not be SHOCKED and APPALLED that someone wants to find happiness. |
that's not what she said, but since you brought up the subject....
it is neither shocking nor appalling that someone wants to find happiness, though the things that some people justify in the cause of personal happiness are both shocking and appalling. "pursuit of happiness" as an inalienable right is an American concept, not a Torah concept. Were we put on Earth to pursue happiness or to do what the Abishter wants?
And if Mr. Kahane's happiness depends upon his being permitted to marry Ms. Grushoh Giyoress, that should be permitted? If Ms. Singer feels she can achieve true happiness only as an opera star, we should give her the go-ahead? Suppose the love of your life turns out to be--we shouldn't know from such things--your half-sibling? aren't you entitled to be happy?
If your child would be happy eating nothing but candy all day, would you feel justified in allowing him to pursue that happiness?
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mimsy7420
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Mon, Oct 30 2006, 1:19 pm
I never said I agree.
And this case is a bit different from a child wanting candy since the alternative was suicide.
And I said very clearly, it might not be a Torah concept, but we are talking about a human being here, so we can not be shocked when a human being wants to find happiness since that is how the world works from a human being standpoint. From a Torah standpoint it is a whole different story. And there is no question what the Torah standpoint is.
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