feeling suffocated by yeshivish world view of women

spring13

Wed, Jul 11 2012, 9:12 pm

OP, I do see the things that you see. I'm one of those straddling-yeshivish-and-MO types, and the way women are sometimes treated/regarded in more right-wing societies does bother me a lot; seriously, women have to go to the back of the bus? does no one see the awful parallel there? but I've been lucky to marry a guy and have friends who are in this no-man's-land with me, and have even found a shul where we feel that we fit, where people are allowed to make choices.

I'm comfortable hanging out with people who are both right and left of me, and I'm comfortable thinking for myself, which helps: I just don't get into ideological discussions with friends in real life when I know we disagree on something. for the most part, I feel that I've been able to make choices that reflect hashkafot that ring true with me personally, and not just what this or that group tells me is correct. right now I live in northern NJ, so I have lots of choices for schools when my kids are old enough, and I'm sure we'll be able to find places that I feel support the balanced lifestyle I'm trying to live.

You don't have to choose between Boro Park and the Upper East Side or something; if you do decide to move, you can probably find a place (OOT) that has the kind of balance you're looking for in life.

Simple1

Wed, Jul 11 2012, 9:45 pm

spring13 wrote:

Are there buses in US where the women sit in back? As I said earlier this is not the case on the Lakewood/ Brooklyn bus.

ellie23

Wed, Jul 11 2012, 10:11 pm

I dont have time to read thru the replies to this post but I had to comment because I feel the same as you OP....I think there is widespread ignorance about the TORAH view of women among the males of yeshivish society...they learn a very shallow view of tznius and women's roles and from that, many deduce that women have a smaller role in many thing because they are inferior. with that ideology in mind, yeshivish men often treat women poorly. I live in brooklyn, and have been victim of this time and time again. I have been verbally put down, and treated like second class at kiddushim and in peoples homes. enter thru the back door, sit on the back of the bus (yes on the monsey bus from monsey to brooklyn this happened to me!), dont stand here- men are talking..I was even told to stand at the back of a bakery! and I dress by the laws of tznius...it isnt because I wear pants etc.. (which would still mean the behavior is unacceptable but may make these male reactions a tad more believable)...they are not properly educated and I pity them. at this point, I no longer do what they ask me to..sit in the back of the bus? I say "please dont disturb me. I am fine here. thank you" and then I go back to what I am doing. enter thru the back? no, I will enter thru the front with my husband. period. if you dont like that then dont invite me...thats all. I dont believe in the taliban and judaism is a religion that treasures women more than any other culture/religion and that is what I live by- so I no longer give in to these crazy requests and I pity those that make them. I am proud to be a woman, and a jew...and I will teach my daughter and son the same!

my advice to you: oot is definitely better as far as this is concerned. also remember not to allow other Jews to be your guide to Judaism...the answers are all in the Torah, in stories of biblical women and in direct commandments of women..we are as loved by god as men and that is seen throughout the Torah. feel sorry for those who dont know that and move on..good luck!

BusyBeeMommy

Wed, Jul 11 2012, 11:11 pm

I live in Brooklyn, was raised yeshivish, married someone yeshivish and send my kid to a yeshivish school. I've never felt I was treated as a second class citizen. At this point in my life, I don't really identify myself as right wing yeshivish as I feel that it's a cult-ish. I disagree with many of the pressures and restrictions that were placed on me when I grew up, and I feel that I don't want my children with these pressures. I want them to live their lives without worrying about feeling judged and whether they'll be accepted or not by a community that has so many stringencies, if they ever fail to keep some of them. I also feel that many of the restrictions are not in-line with the real world, and people need to be brought up equipped to deal with the real world. Such as completely restricting the internet.

That said, with all my disagreements, I've never felt treated like a second class citizen. I've always felt valued and educated. I went to a seminary that taught us a heck of a lot and a school that gave us good extra-curriculum outlets. If anything, having worked within the chasidish community for several years, I think that they have the women being second class citizens thing going on more. Even so, the men with character and mentschlichkeit always treated us women very nicely.

For all those previous posters who feel in between MO and yeshivish, I've recently heard of a term "centrist Orthodox". I don't know if it's just new to me or it's been around, but I like the sound of it. Bottom line is, we live in a changing world and within halacha our hashkafa needs to be adapted. While I agree with many of the principles of the yeshivish culture, I think it has gotten out of control a bit, and when you stretch the rubberband too taught, it snaps back.

amother

Wed, Jul 11 2012, 11:12 pm

Just to throw something out:
Sometimes I wonder if this isn't the next "Sara Schenerer" issue of our day. I mean, she institued Torah learning for women because women were able to learn secular studies and use their minds in the pursuit of secular knowledge. She feared and saw they were leaving Torah because they weren't given those same opportunities in the Torah Velt.

What about today? Is this our Sara Schenrer moment???? Are we putting our future wives and mothers, our young girls into a position where they will be treated as equals and able to speak in public and be respected in public and telling them that when they come back home they will be second class and enter rear doors and be unallowed to speak in public? Will they leave yiddishkeit for the equality and treatment they find out of our world????

I don't see how this can go on for ever. I think other posters are right... this is the next crisis waiting to explode.

amother

Wed, Jul 11 2012, 11:15 pm

I don't think it is individual men who treat women poorly. I think in the yeshivish world I live in most if not all men are respectful to women and their wives and value their wives input. It is the CULTURAL SOCIETAL COMMUNITY that degrades the women to second class citizens... not the individual but in the communal public sphere. That is the problem. You can't live your life not being the same in private and in public... it is a problem for the men in the yeshivish world in the way they publically vs. privately treat women and it is a problem for the women who are treated as equals with all avenues open to them in the outside world and as behind the scenes restricted citizens in the yeshivish world. To succeed, we need to be able to have our values and actions the same regardless of where we are.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:13 am

amother wrote:

I respectfully disagree. The outside world is one thing, and home is another thing, and we should use different values and actions in the two different places. A brief glance around at work, making mental inventory of all the women there - which of them is married, and how many times so far, and who has kids, will quickly reveal that they do not get what you get in life. They have boyfriends. Maybe. They might have one, or at the most two, kids. This is NOT a coincidence: their culture does not bring, or allow, one life long husband, and more than two kids. Do you want to be like them? Do you want your daughters to be like them? No. Well, nothing good is free. The restrictions are the necessary price. You are not a restricted citizen, you are a married fertile citizen. The women at work are brutally denied what you take for granted. Brutally. Really brutally. Brick wall denial. It is probable they confide their sorrows only in each other, but never in you, because they know you have more, you have another world, you wouldn't undertstand, and would feel disgust and disdain at their sorrows. Look past their confident smiles to the facts you know about them. You will be shocked when you realize that some have men and some have kids but it's never the father of the kid who is the current man. Ever. Not in urban areas, anyway. Ever.

Perhaps gender separations and discretions are a choik. Perhaps it is impossible to understand.

Try this on for size: whatever you say is said with your female brain and through your female eyes. It is not going to work for a man's ears or brain. You are not worse, but you are different. No, he can't use your intelligent Talmud / Torah comments. Because they come from, meaning through, you. It's a different architecture, and you need to talk that material over with another woman, not with him. Talmud / Torah isn't science or engineering, where maybe it doesn't matter who puts up the bridge.

We must learn to value what we do have, and not pine for what we can't have, or can't really deeply have. We can't be men. We have a lot, but we have to know that, and get into it. We must not talk on the cell phone when we are with our husband or kids. Hang up. Look at what you have in front of you.

DrMom

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:17 am

Ima_Shelli wrote:

I have the same issues that you do on some level, but I solve this by having a really rewarding career outside the home. That's how I deal with this. I am a woman who is treated as an equal at work. My husband and family are also on board and treat me as an equal human being.

Then, I show up to a yeshivish event and humbly enter through the back door, or pick up a chareidi publication in which even the dolls' faces are erased if they look female, or I send my husband off to a no-women allowed asifa, and I swallow my thoughts, since I am happy with the other aspects of the yeshivish word, and I thnk G-d every day that I have a great job that allows me to be part of the real world where none of this is an issue.

Although I am not yeshivish, I can completely relate to your post. I also cope with situations in which I am treated like a simpleton/temptress/second-class citizen in religious settings in this way.

sequoia

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:22 am

Are you nuts? Enough with the loshon hara and motzi shem ra on non-Jewish, non-frum, and non-yeshivish people! The husband is never the father of the kids?! Are you mad? Are you trying to justify your own extreme stance by painting the non-Jewish, secular, AND MO worlds as being hotbeds of miserable immorality?!

Nearly all my friends are secular. Nearly all got married young, started having children, and are building strong, traditional families.

And really, if you think gender separation is a necessary price to pay for good families, you are so seriously, purposely, deliberately deluded that there's no sense in even talking to you.

Guess what, Dolly?! An awful lot of us on this site are BTs and geirim. An awful lot! Maybe even more than FFBs, put together. But we don't feel the need to disparage the secular world with exaggerated horror stories at every turn.

Why do you? Think you're the only one around here who has "lived" and the rest of us are sheltered BY girls who have no idea what's out there? Wrong! Many, many of us are BTs and geirim. And we are capable of seeing the good and bad in various societies, various communities, and choosing Orthodox Judaism mindfully and purposefully, and acknowledging where change needs to happen.

A much more productive mindset than the one you're currently espousing.

amother

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:35 am

sequoia wrote:

You are the one who keeps asking for her on different threads. Now you are calling her nuts and mad. That's disgusting. Leave her alone. You are rude and vicious. There is something seriously wrong with you. She is nice. You are not. Stop baiting her. She usa very good hearted.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:39 am

Well, I have lived and worked only in an urban area. I am glad it's better other places. Yes, I thought it was mostly ffb's here.

I meant no disparagement to secular people, who I see as stuck with what they have, and having no choice in their culture. They are not bad people at all. The women try to get better, and it just does not work out that way for them. Even the men would like better, and it just does not work out that way for them. Culture is powerful. Becoming religious may not be rare on this website, but it wasn't going on in the work world I saw.

Temptress / simpleton? Men should be nicer than that. Most men seem to be, from the comments here.

So you don't see the secular culture as broken. Where I live, it is. In fact in my family, who are very nice, it is. We don't do messy stuff, we are genteel, but we simply sit around and default to working and staying single a lot, or childless. But we do not have what you have, which I candidly admire, and in the right way, envy. Please appreciate it and don't think it grows on trees. Perhaps being simpletoned or temptressed is worth it, occasionally, if not too often.

I am surrounded by family casualties. You have no idea how goodloooking, nice and smart they are, too. It's my perspective.

No, I wasn't knocking MO, not at all.

I don't knock anybody, but I am looking at results, at least the ones I can personally see.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total

sequoia

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 12:54 am

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

You are misusing amother, which is against the rules of this site. It says quite clearly in the pop-up window, "if you want to insult someone, you must do it under your own name."

I'm not the one who reported your post, but I'm glad it has been reported.

amother

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 1:02 am

sequoia wrote:

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

And if I get in trouble it will be worth it if you leave her alone. Now you know she was sick maybe you will stop bullying her. No one wants to hear you brutalize her.

sequoia

Thu, Jul 12 2012, 1:05 am

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

And if I get in trouble it will be worth it if you leave her alone. Now you know she was sick maybe you will stop bullying her. No one wants to hear you brutalize her.

But you see, amother, the trouble is, a coward cannot be taken seriously Smile

You should have posted under your username if you wanted to achieve something rather than just name-call.

Incidentally, I suspect Dolly can stick up for herself.