religious marriage before civil divorce

amother

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 8:53 am

(OP) I had a civil marriage bec I wanted to be on my ex-dh's insurance etc. not because I think it's morally required. if I wasn't jewish, I would be able to live together with a boyfriend before getting my divorce and it wouldn't be bigamy. since I do need a religious marriage ceremony, I was asking if the rabbi not being licensed makes a difference. legally. I don't think morals come into play here.

thanx for the well wishes!!

amother

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 9:04 am

smilingmom wrote:

Culturedpearls wrote:

Firstly she wouldn't get a second civil marriage. She is certainly free to remarry al pi Halacha .
Secondly even if there wasn't a proper kiddushin a get is still preferable to dissolve such a marriage.

According to NYS law, a ceremonial marriage is prohibited if a person is not legally free to marry civilly.
If OP lived in Florida it would not be an issue, because in Florida you can marry in a ceremonial wedding as long as there is no bar to the ceremonial wedding.

Do you have a site for this? Without researching I would believe that because of the Statute of Frauds in NYS that without any writing the marriage would not be civilly binding because it could last more than a year. I don't think the license of the clergy has anything to do with the validity of the marriage. OP this is not legal advise so please don't rely on it.

rachel91

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 9:08 am

Just to make this clear...If she has a get she is no longer married by jewish law. So she can remarry again by jewish law. But she can't remarry civilly because she doesn't have a divorce yet. So..if she gets married again only by jewish law( not civilly) it shouldn't be a problem, because such weddings do not count as legal marriages.

invisiblecircus

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 9:19 am

I've never been divorced B"H but when my husband and I got married we were required to have a civil marriage as well as a religious one. This was in the UK.

Usually the religious and civil marriages happen at the same time, either the rabbi is a licenced registrar or a separate registrar attends the wedding to sign the civil papers. In our case, we were not eligible to be civilly married in the UK as neither of us were officially resident at the time, so we had to have a separate civil wedding in our country of residence in advance of the religious ceremony in the UK.

In short, it depends which country OP is in as the law isn't the same everywhere. If she is in the UK, what she is proposing wouldn't be possible.

amother

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 9:20 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Again, there is something you seem to be missing - there's nothing stopping your sort-of ex-husband from going to court and suing for full custody on the grounds of adultery.

In addition, you're now defrauding the insurance company.

Where is the insurance fraud? She is still civilly married to dh1?

Also in NYS adultry is not grounds for granting full custody. One case I participated in the wife was swimming nude in the Hudson River, stoned and making out with her married lover. This had nothing to do with custody because the kids were not exposed to drugs although they were present.

You have to look at the courts pov and with all the crazy s@@t that goes on in the secular world. A mom having a monogamous relationship behind closed doors does not endanger children.

smilingmom

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

When I get to work tomorrow, I will get the exact cite for you, but if you wish you can do some research, the phrase you can search "impediment to ceremonial marriage" or "ceremonial marriage as a basis for prosecution of bigamy"

rachel91

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 9:45 am

invisiblecircus wrote:

I was also never divorced b'h and I'm also in Europe, actually the kehila prefers it if the legal marriage is before the jewish one but it didn't work out by us and we still didn't get married civilly so for the jews we're married and for the non jews not:), because a jewish marriage doesn't mean anything here (for the civil part) that's why I assume that OP wont have any problems remarrying only by jewish law.

greenfire

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 10:18 am

I'm going to tell you what it's like from my perspective ... having a 'get' is one thing ... but there is a basic halacha that says one should follow legalities מקןם העיר in lieu of making a chillul hashem ... that being said it is frowned upon - not respected - certainly not emotionally sound ... everyone in the court system was astounded, lawyers & judges as to why the dxh brought his new wifey to divorce proceedings & custody battles ... but people go on & people forget [so long as you wear a kapota & grow a beard Rolling Eyes

]

Peanut2

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 1:28 pm

OP, please speak to a lawyer.

It may be illegal to get married while already married. Duh! Even if the second marriage is "only" religious. Obviously it's only religious! You cannot be married to two people legally in the US. People on this site watch Sister Wives. For goodness sake, marrying more than one person is a big huge gigantic problem! Even if halchically she is no longer married. Duh ladies! Use your heads. Legally she IS married, and legally if she married another person she is married to two people. You need to speak to a lawyer, OP. I am not a lawyer, and have no idea what is and is not legal. But I love polygamist shows, and they tell me to be careful. Okay?

FYI: If it is illegal for her to marry another person, she would be committing an aveira by disobeying the laws of this country. As a frum website, I request that people not encourage another poster to ignore halacha and commit an aveira. In order to prevent such a transgression of our holy Torah, OP should speak to a lawyer to determine what is a legal course of action for her.

Someone posted earlier about doing this with the consent of the ex-husband/legally still her husband and with the help of a lawyer. That would be the only way to go IMO.

amother

Sun, Nov 04 2012, 7:27 pm

Please follow the advice to see a lawyer. My father started dating a woman who was separated but not divorced. (Nobody is frum in this scenario.) Her husband had them followed by a private investigator and pictures of her going into my father's house, kissing my father, etc. taken without their knowledge became evidence in court. Even if you think things are all settled and it's just paperwork, and soon-can-be ex can get very angry when they see they are being quickly replaced and can make things difficult for you for emotional reasons. In some places, none of this evidence would be allowed. But we don't know what your situation is, where you live, etc. Get legal avdice.

DrMom

Mon, Nov 05 2012, 6:32 am

Peanut2 wrote:

But the second marriage isn't a "legal" marriage yet (by US law).

I said this on another thread:

I can't wrap my head around the idea that the State is okay with her living with another man, but they would object if she were living with him AND they had a little religious ceremony with no legal ramifications (it's not a civil marriage at all). If she gathers 2 kosher witnesses and her fiance says "harei at..." she's married as far as her religion dictates. How can the State possibly forbid someone from doing this? As far as they are concerned, it should just be some religious mumbo-jumbo. There's no marriage license involved.

smilingmom

Mon, Nov 05 2012, 7:47 am

DrMom wrote:

I said this on another thread:

I can't wrap my head around the idea that the State is okay with her living with another man, but they would object if she were living with him AND they had a little religious ceremony with no legal ramifications (it's not a civil marriage at all). If she gathers 2 kosher witnesses and her fiance says "harei at..." she's married as far as her religion dictates. How can the State possibly forbid someone from doing this? As far as they are concerned, it should just be some religious mumbo-jumbo. There's no marriage license involved.

Because in the US bigamy is a crime. If you think it is unfair speak to your legislator. The Mormons will love you.
Ceremonial marriages are considered legal marriages, for purposes of this law.

DrMom

Mon, Nov 05 2012, 9:43 am

I thought bigamy laws applied to civil/registered marriages only. I certainly wouldn't advocate doing anything illegal.

I must say: I'm with the Mormons of this one! I can't figure out why the State should care one way or the other. All the reasoning that applies to legalizing gay marriage would seem to apply here. (Whom does it harm? What do they care what consenting adults agree to do?) I'm baffled that they could basically outlaw a religious ceremony. Especially when they have no problem with people living together without a religious marriage.

Barbara

Mon, Nov 05 2012, 9:47 am

DrMom wrote:

I would assume that religious Jews would not want to live together without marriage. And IMNSHO, that's pretty much what they're doing if they don't have a civil marriage.

But so long as they're not doing it to defraud anyone -- by qualifying for benefits to which they otherwise would not be entitled, by not paying their share of taxes, etc -- I have no greater objection to their living together without benefit of marriage than I do anyone else.