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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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busydev

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 1:39 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

But for all those who think "Well, she's pregnant. Who cares about the potential physical, psychological or social impact upon her of carrying a baby to term; an infertile couple could adopt."

Straw man, much? I don't see a single person saying that.

check oodlesofnoodles post earlier on the thread. she wrote exactly that.

Barbara

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 1:41 pm

busydev wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

But for all those who think "Well, she's pregnant. Who cares about the potential physical, psychological or social impact upon her of carrying a baby to term; an infertile couple could adopt."

Straw man, much? I don't see a single person saying that.

check oodlesofnoodles post earlier on the thread. she wrote exactly that.

Not to mention the anonymous poster who keeps offering money to buy a baby.

amother

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 1:44 pm

This is a heartbreaking thread.

Do frum people ever do open adoption? I've gotten these ads for open adoptions and there are really diverse people on there.

There really are children out there who need parents, and there are people who want children. How do you match them up?

ally

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 1:53 pm

Barbara wrote:

ally wrote:

vintagebknyc wrote:

oodlesofnoodles wrote:

I have a friend who found out she was pregnant and I begged her not to have an abortion, I told her I would make sure her baby went to a good home. She finally agreed not to go through with it but then she miscarried...

do you have any idea how we infertiles feel about the fact that pregnant teens (usually) are verbally badgered into giving us babies? pregnant teens/adults, who don't want babies, are not our incubators.

So pregnant teens should automatically have abortions? Noone is ever allowed to help someone see that there are other options?

The fact that there are families who would be willing to adopt is be a factor that should be considered, but not the sole or the only factor that should be considered when a pregnant teen (or any pregnant woman) is considering her options.

But I am solidly with VintageBkNYC here -- treating these women as incubators (and particularly the woman who seems to think that her money should entitle her to buy a baby) is disgusting. And I speak as someone who would have given almost anything to have a second child, but was never able to do so.

But for all those who think "Well, she's pregnant. Who cares about the potential physical, psychological or social impact upon her of carrying a baby to term; an infertile couple could adopt." Do you ever consider that perhaps instead of using family planning to space children, you should instead have more kids, and give those you weren't planning on up for adoption. Pregnancy is physically difficult? Well, it is for those young women as well. It would be difficult to give up a child, to know he is being raised elsewhere by you don't know who? Ditto. What would you tell people? Uhh, same thing the young women would. Except, of course, you wouldn't have to explain it to a potential spouse. Just a thought.

Noone should be coercing a teenager to go through a pregnancy they can't handle. But abortion doesn't have to be the default position. It's not as if it is without any long term ramifications.
I believe in a woman's right to choose. And part of choice is an availability of options.
I guess what bothered me about that post was the suggestion that because the teenager changed her mind, she must have been "badgered" not just "convinced"- and the implication that the more logical choice is abortion.

And I agree with Ora. There's a difference between purposely putting yourself in a position, and after having been put there, dealing with it. There is no repercussion free solution.

black sheep

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 2:32 pm

Barbara wrote:

busydev wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

But for all those who think "Well, she's pregnant. Who cares about the potential physical, psychological or social impact upon her of carrying a baby to term; an infertile couple could adopt."

Straw man, much? I don't see a single person saying that.

check oodlesofnoodles post earlier on the thread. she wrote exactly that.

Not to mention the anonymous poster who keeps offering money to buy a baby.

and, even more insulting, not much money, either. 20K will barely cover the therapy to recover from selling her baby. amother must think babies can be bought... cheap!

TranquilityAndPeace

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 2:36 pm

black sheep wrote:

Barbara wrote:

busydev wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

But for all those who think "Well, she's pregnant. Who cares about the potential physical, psychological or social impact upon her of carrying a baby to term; an infertile couple could adopt."

Straw man, much? I don't see a single person saying that.

check oodlesofnoodles post earlier on the thread. she wrote exactly that.

Not to mention the anonymous poster who keeps offering money to buy a baby.

and, even more insulting, not much money, either. 20K will barely cover the therapy to recover from selling her baby. amother must think babies can be bought... cheap!

She's clearly in pain due to infertility. Pain can make people think/write things that are hard to understand.

ora_43

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 2:45 pm

black sheep wrote:

Barbara wrote:

busydev wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

But for all those who think "Well, she's pregnant. Who cares about the potential physical, psychological or social impact upon her of carrying a baby to term; an infertile couple could adopt."

Straw man, much? I don't see a single person saying that.

check oodlesofnoodles post earlier on the thread. she wrote exactly that.

Not to mention the anonymous poster who keeps offering money to buy a baby.

and, even more insulting, not much money, either. 20K will barely cover the therapy to recover from selling her baby. amother must think babies can be bought... cheap!

Or maybe they both think that abortions can also be traumatizing, and that giving the baby up for adoption is better for mother and baby.

Neither said anything like "who cares about the mother." I can see how you'd think that if you assume that abortion is psychologically, physically, and socially better, but not all people make that assumption.

turca

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 2:48 pm

For those who only wanted to get a healthy newborn jewish baby. Open up your minds before you get nothing. I know one of those couples and they r in their 60's childless. I also know another couple in their 60's who are having many nachas from their ex-non- jewish adopted children.

grace413

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 3:05 pm

I don't think many pregnant women (of any age) are being pressured to give birth and then place the baby for adoption.

When we were adopting our social worker told us that most of the women placing babies had been in such denial that by the time they acknowledged the pregnancy it was too late for abortion. Very few women go through a pregnancy planning to place the baby for adoption when they have option of abortion. And even then, many women change their minds after the baby is born.

As a matter of fact, the system (in the US) is set up to protect the biological mother. In the state we adopted in any expenses paid to the bio mother had to be court approved - discovery of any unapproved money changing hands led to the adoptive parents losing the baby. Our DD's birthmother was visited by 3 different social workers in the 24 hours after she gave birth, reminding her that she had no obligation to surrender her child and that she should consider keeping the baby. In our state, the bio mom can terminate her parental rights only 72 hours after giving birth - to give her time to reconsider. Once she terminates, she cannot change her mind unless she can prove coercion. In some states bio moms have up to 6 MONTHS to change their minds.

I thank Hashem that I only had to be a nervous wreck for 72 hours. I don't think I would have made it through 6 months.

Some Rabbonim say it's better to adopt a non-Jewish child and convert the baby. Some Rabbonim say it's better to adopt a Jewish baby - almost impossible to adopt a healthy Jewish newborn.

Knowing that you cannot get pregnant is a very difficult nisayon.

Open adoption is a very vague term. It can mean anything from corrresponding with the bio mom before/after birth, meeting her once or twice or taking the child to see her every Tuesday afternoon. Different people are capable of handing different situations.

grace413

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 3:08 pm

turca wrote:

On one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand there are people who have families and communities who will not be accepting of a child who was not born Jewish. I don't know if it's wise to bring such a child into a community where they will be ostracized.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 5:22 pm

As the mother of an adopted little girl, I find the majority of this thread to be disgusting, insulting and just plain upsetting. THINK about what you are saying, and how it may affect other people! Can y'all get any more insensitive? I am absolutely hurt and furious right now. Crying

I need to stop right here, before I say something to get myself banned.

Barbara

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 5:31 pm

ora_43 wrote:

black sheep wrote:

Barbara wrote:

busydev wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

But for all those who think "Well, she's pregnant. Who cares about the potential physical, psychological or social impact upon her of carrying a baby to term; an infertile couple could adopt."

Straw man, much? I don't see a single person saying that.

check oodlesofnoodles post earlier on the thread. she wrote exactly that.

Not to mention the anonymous poster who keeps offering money to buy a baby.

and, even more insulting, not much money, either. 20K will barely cover the therapy to recover from selling her baby. amother must think babies can be bought... cheap!

I make neither assumption. I think it's a very private decision that can only be made, in the end, by the pregnant woman, and will necessarily be based upon her own unique circumstances. What is best for one woman may not be best for another.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 6:00 pm

grace413 wrote:

I had the same situation with my adoption. The birth parents had their car break down, (before the birth) and I couldn't legally give them any money. I didn't want to "buy a baby", I wanted to help a couple who were struggling financially - regardless of the adoption outcome. I ended stuffing a couple of hundred dollar bills in their sofa while visiting , and after I went home I called and told the birth mom that she really needed to clean house, especially around the sofa (LOL!) She figured it out. Wink

We both had social workers breathing down our necks every hour or so, for the whole 5 days we spend in the hospital together. Even after all that, I had to wait 8 months before the adoption was final. We have an open adoption, and the birth parents live about an hour away from us. We see them at least 6 times a year or more, always for birthdays and holidays. My daughter now has a half brother from her biomom (remarried), and she has a great relationship with him, too.

All in all, we have one big, loving, very quirky and unusual family, with lots of mutual support.

amother

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 11:36 pm

Am I missing something?
I keep reading the thread and missing the point.

From what I understood most women here believe that a sixteen year old girl who has unprotected relations should just suck it up and carry the baby to term for NINE months to give up for adoption.

I believe that happened to a girl in Crown Heights in the 1980's. Apparently she vanished mysterious Chanukah time and didn't come back for seven months. How do you miss 3/4 of tenth grade???

I believe in women having rights. We fought for this right and in many cases abortion is warranted and necessary.

Why should a naive sixteen year old live with a life of regret based on a few nights of stupidity.

Many women have babies they don't want. No child deserves to come into the world unloved and unwanted.
Hashem gave us the right to have an abortion--it must serve some sort of purpose OR it wouldn't exist. Everything on this earth is here for a reason.

ValleyMom

Wed, Nov 28 2012, 11:43 pm

When I was single I taught in a school with several other young teachers and when we all went out for a drink after work one of the teachers dropped her wallet and a photo of a beautiful little boy fell lout. I asked who it was and she quickly put it away.

I never pried.

That night another teacher called to tell me that she got pregnant in high school and gave her baby up for adoption. Then she joined AA and became a Born Again Christian.

She got enaged and married and NEVER told her fiancee/husband about her giving away her baby.

Its 23 years later and I still wonder how she lives every day with her secret.

I know she never told her husband because I still keep in touch with one of the teachers who is a good friend of hers. I think the deception would eat away at me.

I can't imagine ANYONE even a young frum teen living with that sort of deception for the rest of their life.

punchike

Thu, Nov 29 2012, 12:36 am

Maybe I'm misinformed, but I thought the torah doesn't permit abortions. (With the exception of the mom's life being at risk and rape chas vshalom)
Does the baby deserve to die because its mother is a teen? What about living with the knowledge that a life within her was aborted?
I'm confused. Does the torah allow it because it would spare the girl the emotional upheaval?

hesha

Thu, Nov 29 2012, 1:24 am

I really think that a lot of you are writing your responses and criticism of op without due sensitivity to a woman who obviously cannot bear a child on her own. maybe her post sounded like she was trying to buy a baby and you didn't like, but please don't attack someone who is obviously in a lot of pain....

mirror

Thu, Nov 29 2012, 4:16 am

amother wrote:

Hashem gave us the right to have an abortion--it must serve some sort of purpose OR it wouldn't exist. Everything on this earth is here for a reason.

Can you cite your sources?

Raisin

Thu, Nov 29 2012, 6:41 am

I don't understand how a man can be payed for donating sperm (which exacts no physical toll on his body) but a woman cannot be payed for giving up a baby. Anyone who has been lucky enough to be pregnant knows that pregnancy exacts a huge toll on a womans body, (plus an risk to her life) and asking a 16 year old girl to do this to herself is a huge thing.

I think covering reasonable expenses for missed education, medical costs etc should certainly be allowed.

33055

Thu, Nov 29 2012, 6:54 am

Birth mothers in certain circles are given $50,000 when they give up a baby. I know of one that was given $100,000. These are for closed adoptions.

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