Seeing into neighbor's windows

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 12:17 pm

I live in a kollel apartment building- there are a number of families who all live on top of each other. Everyone has windows that we COULD see into- except we all keep our shades down or if we wanted more sunlight, got curtains that let in sunlight, but that people cannot see in.

as my SIL said when she came to visit- we get to practice "mah tovoo"

However there is one neighbor who always keeps her windows WIDE open. She used to live a few floors up, right across from me, and when ever I was on the back porch I could see straight into her kitchen. I always tried to not look, but sometimes you cant help it (something moves, you need to be standing right there to see your child in the backyard etc) and it always made me SO uncomfortable. Her other windows faced the street so it wasnt a problem.

Now she moved to a ground floor apartment. Her windows for her kitchen and dining room are 6 inches off the ground in the backyard. My son (18mo) always looks in when hes there. he gets excited when he sees their baby and notices and "comments" on things he sees there. ("banana", "cup", her kids etc)

It makes me so uncomfortable but you cant exactly explain to a baby that you cannot look in others windows- esp when the windows in question are right by your play area. I also hate pulling him away from there cause then I am right by the windows and see in. I usually try to sit where I cannot see.

I wish she would get curtains. Its just so not right. there is an inyan of mah tovoo and privacy and not looking into others houses. I think it goes on the looker and the house owner (or apt owner in this case) to do what they can so you cant see in.

But DH says- obviously it doesnt bother her since she keeps it all right open and I do not need to keep chasing DS away from the windows.

What think you? TIA

Fox

Thu, May 02 2013, 12:39 pm

Personally, I probably wouldn't get too worked up about it. From your description, the uncovered windows are public rooms within her apartment -- not bedrooms, etc. Although clearly she keep her kitchen much cleaner than I do!

Next time you're chatting with her, you might say something like, "You know, I want to apologize if Moishie looks in your kitchen window. I'm trying to teach him that it's not polite, but he doesn't quite understand the concept yet."

Given her past behavior, my guess is that she'll say, "Oh, no -- it's no problem. I just can't stand the feeling of having all the windows covered up" or something similar. However, you will have established that you can only do so much to prevent seeing into her home and that it makes you a bit uncomfortable.

I have a feeling this is not only a personal preference but may also be a cultural thing. My dining room window faces our neighbor's kitchen window, and while the position precludes "seeing" very much, we regularly wave to one another!

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 12:53 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry, but my blinds broke (again) and I keep pushing off getting new ones. embarrassed

(Don't worry, you're probably not talking about me, I don't live in an apartment.)

no its not you and no her blinds are not broken. her shades (the pull down type) are not at all pulled down. and its been like this for over 4 years that I have known her.

Yes it def doesnt seem to bother her that there are little kids (its not just my son) that are standing with their noses pressed against her window watching her make supper (and pick off a piece to try), watching her and dh eat supper, or her feeding her kids, watching her punish her kids, watching her do whatever it is she is doing.

no she is not at all indecent. (we are yeshivish kollel families after all) but I just kinda feel its bad chinuch that its accepted/ok to stand watching whats going on in other peoples houses. and due to the size of the backyard its not like I can tell him to play elsewhere- there isnt much elsewhere to play.

Plus I feel uncomfortable when I see into her house while shes cooking or cleaning or whatever. I shouldnt be seeing it, you know? (or maybe you dont)

Our living room window faced the person across from ours window so we kept the shades down until we got curtains to let in light, but we cannot see into their house without moving the curtain and they cannot see into ours.

wasnt it praiseworthy of klal yisroel that they positioned their tents so no one could see into each other's tents? isnt that something to strive for? isnt that one of the traits of klal yisroel??

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 12:58 pm

sequoia wrote:

What exactly is the problem? You shouldn't look on purpose, that's all.

I only lower the shades when it gets dark.

but thats what is bothering me. We arent just happening to see someone/something as we walk by the window. The kids are staring in all the time. and its hard for me to even find a place in the back yard that I dont see in. and I dont want to. im not trying to look. but I wish it wouldnt be SO open!

shabbatiscoming

Thu, May 02 2013, 1:07 pm

But if she is not closing her curtains, she obviously does not care. I dont close any curtains until it is dark and even then, one side of my house is sort of at the back of a hill, so I dont actually know if ppl can see in, but I still leave it open because I like to be able to look outside.

Dont think so hard into this. It is not her bedroom, she is not naked or in the throws of se x. What could you possibly see? What does it really matter?

And if this is something that really bothers you, maybe write an anonymous letter to the entire building complex that everyone should thnik about ppl that may be able to look in etc and see what happens. If she still does not put up curtains or pull them down, she really does not care.

pesek zman

Thu, May 02 2013, 2:36 pm

amother wrote:

"We're Colel yesh ppl after all"
Lets just say I lived in pasaic by the collel apts when I first got married some families left the windows open and it wasn't always g rated
Nuff said

I was going to say........kollel people have s*x too! They shower, they get undressed: they are just like you and me!!!

greenfire

Thu, May 02 2013, 2:45 pm

superdanni wrote:

Unless she is walking around in the nude, or you could see her having s*x, who cares?? She obviously doesn't (and I wouldn't either, if I were her)

my thoughts exactly - unless they romp around naked [and some of us do] there is really no concern

also I'm a little curious why you say מה טובו - the tents were open on all 4 sides so that everyone felt welcome

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 2:49 pm

superdanni wrote:

amother wrote:

"We're Colel yesh ppl after all"
Lets just say I lived in pasaic by the collel apts when I first got married some families left the windows open and it wasn't always g rated
Nuff said

I was going to say........kollel people have s*x too! They shower, they get undressed: they are just like you and me!!!

op here.

in their kitchens and dining rooms?!?!?

youch to previous amother- I would never have expected it.

no I never saw anything indecent- shes the type the sleeps in a tichel and would not go without socks if any male can see her- even if wearing a long skirt. no im not worried about indecent or non g-rated exposure. I am worried about properly being mechanech my children that when you walk by a house with an open window you dont look in (to look and see what is going on).

lkwdmommy

Thu, May 02 2013, 2:50 pm

greenfire wrote:

superdanni wrote:

Unless she is walking around in the nude, or you could see her having s*x, who cares?? She obviously doesn't (and I wouldn't either, if I were her)

No- Avraham's tent was open on 4 sides. In the desert, Bnai Yisroel's tents were set up in a way that one could not see from one tent into the other. That is why they merited the blessing of "Ma Tovu Ohalecha Yaakov"

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 2:54 pm

greenfire wrote:

superdanni wrote:

Unless she is walking around in the nude, or you could see her having s*x, who cares?? She obviously doesn't (and I wouldn't either, if I were her)

only avrohom's tent was open on four sides.

in mah tovu (bilam's curse turned blessing) he commends the jewish nation on arranging their tents in such a way that everyone had privacy- no opening faced another. A yid (or any mannerly person really) should not be looking into other people's home. what happens in one person's home is not the business of the other person.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, May 02 2013, 3:01 pm

amother wrote:

superdanni wrote:

amother wrote:

"We're Colel yesh ppl after all"
Lets just say I lived in pasaic by the collel apts when I first got married some families left the windows open and it wasn't always g rated
Nuff said

I was going to say........kollel people have s*x too! They shower, they get undressed: they are just like you and me!!!

So then if that is your gripe with this whole thing, then the achrayut is on YOU to do something, not your neighbor, she is in her home, minding her own business. Then when your child can understand, explain to him/her what you want to teach him/her about not looking. Other than that, I think this is one of those battles that you are just going to have to deal with.

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 3:07 pm

that is what dh says- to just leave DS alone till he is able to understand.

but I also feel uncomfortable about it for ME. again not that im seeing anything indecent, but when im in the back with DS I am right there as well. Fine I am not standing with my nose to the glass, but I can see everything unless I take special care to stand facing a certain way- which isnt always possible when watching/playing with a toddler.

I dont know if its the right word, but it I feel squirmy/uncomfortable/out of place when I see her cooking, eating, (cooking and eating) talking to her husband with no kids around while they are eating, disciplining her kids etc etc

even at night she doesnt close them. At those times I am not playing with DS but sometimes I need to walk by to throw out trash etc and turn the other way.

To have windows open in a house where there is a yard, space etc- where people can see in, but have to look to do so- thats totally fine, but if its in a place where there are ppl at the window all throughout the day and night... I dunno, I just think its not in place with certain values.

maybe im being totally silly. does anyone agree/understand where im coming from?

Tablepoetry

Thu, May 02 2013, 3:14 pm

And here I always wonder why some people keep their shades down and the curtains drawn and the whole house seems gloomy, stuffy and grey even in the middle of the day.....

Some people just like light and air. Didn't know there was a problem with that, as long as we're talking about public areas and she's not having loud personal discussions there.

I think part of apartment living is compromising somewhat on privacy, at least if we're talking about these types of apartments.

Tablepoetry

Thu, May 02 2013, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

To have windows open in a house where there is a yard, space etc- where people can see in, but have to look to do so- thats totally fine, but if its in a place where there are ppl at the window all throughout the day and night... I dunno, I just think its not in place with certain values.

maybe im being totally silly. does anyone agree/understand where im coming from?

I too would close my windows and draw my curtains in such a situation (and secretly cry over the loss of light and air).
But I think you need to overcome these feelings. Yes, perhaps you are privvy too TMI, but that's her fault, not yours.

amother

Thu, May 02 2013, 3:17 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

And here I always wonder why some people keep their shades down and the curtains drawn and the whole house seems gloomy, stuffy and grey even in the middle of the day.....

we like light in our apartment and have plenty... thru the curtains. not all curtains are dark and heavy. even just a gauzy curtain is something. while you can see in you have to try to look as opposed to glancing by and seeing everything. or theres blinds that you can open to let in light, but again not everyone has to see everything.

I guess its just me so far...

Fox

Thu, May 02 2013, 3:20 pm

amother wrote:

I am worried about properly being mechanech my children that when you walk by a house with an open window you dont look in (to look and see what is going on).

The way to properly be mechanech your children is to teach them at age-appropriate times that there is a whole universe of things that eidel people "don't see"; "don't hear"; and "don't notice." Even if your neighbor were to immediately install shades or curtains, the realities of urban living mean that your child will still encounter a myriad of situations requiring him to deliberately focus his attention elsewhere.

At 18 months, your son is not yet ready to learn these fine points, and I can't imagine anyone would expect him to. As he grows and his own sense of privacy develops, it will be a natural time to begin teaching him not to turn his attention to what the neighbors are having for dinner; whether the couple next door is fighting again; whose child is having trouble in school; or any of the other pieces of TMI that we are privy to when we live in close quarters.