Seeing into neighbor's windows

amother

Fri, May 03 2013, 11:48 am

Shabbat is coming- I did not change my story (maybe I clarified it better??) DS is pushing his nose against the outside of her window while we are in the backyard. I said that we have curtains and shades so no one can see in. all the other families do as well- except for her. she used to have a different apartment where it wasnt such an issue, but now her windows are smack in the middle of the play area/"yard".

and its funny all you telling me not to preach to her- since shes one of the preacher types. but either way I wouldnt write something off the bat and send it to her and I wouldnt be to comfortable saying something unless it somehow came up in other ways. like if she said something about the kids looking in the windows. and even then I would never tell her to get shades, but go along the apology route others (fox?) mentioned.

I was just kinda wondering (since starting this thread) if not looking into other people's houses is a halacha, a hashkafa or an eitza tovah/good manners.

if it is a halacha thing (maybe tznius related?- not that we see anything not tznius in her house, but tznius is also about keeping things private. like we had a tznius group at one point (which this neighbor actually organized) and one thing the book we were learning said was to not talk about your husbands for no reason- like dont even say my husband doesnt like chicken as part of random convo since that is private and should remain so.) I dont remember if it said anything about houses tho I think it did. but that was awhile ago. if we do it again I would perhaps bring it up- not say YOU but just as a "things to think about for the klal"

But anyways if it is a halacha thing to not look into other peoples homes then in such a situation where a window is right there, is there a din of "lifnei iver" for her not to have curtains? Or the fact that she has no curtains and doesnt use her shades makes it that we dont have to be as concerned about it. Again- not that I am staring in her house (tho the little kids are)- but I can see more by walking by then most people can see when trying to look into someones house from the sidewalk (like those ppl that emesornot would be waving at)

and yes my problem is two fold
a. my child pressing his nose against it and seeing everything
and
b. that I feel like im in her house when im not. and that makes me uncomfortable. even tho she knows im there and that other mothers and children are there as well.

another family that has an apartment like hers- tho most of their windows are facing the street put up a contact paper or something that is a one sided mirror so they can keep their surtains/shades open and see out but every joe shmoe cannot see in. I wonder how she would feel about something like that (again I wouldnt just say anything to her about it)

well thank you for all your ideas, thoughts and musar!

shabbatiscoming

Sat, May 04 2013, 2:16 pm

amother wrote:

If your child is doing that, putting his nose up to HER window, I would explain to him that we do not do that. I completely agree with DrMom, that is the height of chutzpah in my books too.

amother

Mon, May 06 2013, 10:52 am

I def hear that she should be complaining. Thats why I dont get why she doesnt cover the windows. It just seems so foreign to me.

On shabbos we were at her house and ds went outside and was looking into the DR while we were all there. (all means neighbors and kids- we were having a shabbos party/learning group) anyways one of the other neighbors kids pointed "look theres DS" and I apologized to her (that he does it often) and she was like what can you do.

so yeah really truly doesnt seem to bother her.

and ROFL I am working on the baby for him- a few more months. Wink

but its not just the baby he comments on, its anything he sees. banana, cereal, ball, her other kids etc.

dh talked to his rav about if there is a halacha etc and he said there is a halacha in baba basra that a person cannot look into another person's house due to tznius. He said we should try not to look, but heard that due to the location of the windows at times it is easier said then done. he suggested writing an anon letter to her apologizing and saying that we are trying not to break this halacha. and then let her take it from there. if she wants to.

It may take me awhile to write such a letter... and then to actually send it... if I ever do. but thank you for the food for thought.

EmesOrNT

Mon, May 06 2013, 10:58 am

As an open shader myself, I'll say it one more time - the onus is on you, not her.

I gotta say though, plenty of kids pass by my open windows all the time, and I rarely have ANY staring in. Most are not that interested. If I did see a kid staring in, it wouldn't bother me at all. I would be surprised that the mom was allowing it. You need to stop fixing everyone else and focus on yourself. There is no reason she should have her shades down so you will be more comfortable.

About, that letter, I'll say it again. If I got one of those, you would be persona non grata in my book.

DrMom

Mon, May 06 2013, 11:11 am

amother wrote:

Maybe she likes natural light or the view of the lawn. Again, she has every right to leave her windowshades open. That's why houses have windows and not just solid walls.

YOU have to teach YOUR kids not to be peeping Toms.

Don't they have anything more interesting to do with their time?

Personally, I'd consider it rather creepy if I received a letter from my neighbors saying that they are trying very hard to keep halacha, but they just can't control themselves, cannot stop peeping into my windows. I guess it would have the effect you'd desire (I'd lower my shades), but it would probably also get you a reputation as a creepy neighbor.

amother

Mon, May 06 2013, 12:00 pm

I hear you all and as I said dunno that I actually would send her a letter anytime soon. (if at all- but based on who she is, she would not look at it as a holier then thou preachy letter. at all. she has sent letters that said things MUCH stronger in the past. but thats really irrelevant here)

but just to clarify...

she has no view of a lawn. we are talking about full size windows that are inches off the ground (so they come up to my shoulders if I were to stand next to them, that are "looking" into an area thats about 6-8 feet wide, all concrete with a wall straight across. no view. some light.

this area is the backyard and is the area that the kids play in and always have been playing in for more years then I have been alive. There is no other place for kids to play due to our location.

my 18mo son does not spend the entire time he is playing outside with his nose against the window, but things on the windowsill are eye level so most times he walks by he comments on things there and if he sees something interesting he goes to look better. and since he is 18 mo he keeps getting distracted... but then getting distracted back to the window.

and I who am watching my 18mo son (as do all the many other mothers with little children) am trying hard as I can not to look in. but due to the location when I glance by I see more then I would see if I were trying to look into someones house from the sidewalk.

yesterday for half the day she had her shades down over half the window (this does happen occasionally). that was such a difference. I couldnt see in unless I would try and while DS could see in, when I went to get him away (distract him) I didnt feel like I was standing in her house.

and there are curtains that let in PLENTY of light but dont let people see everything while glancing by. (white gauzy ones for instance). esp if the view is of a brick wall, concrete and other peoples kids noses. (plus a mess of toys, kids, and mothers. (I do totally understand keeping it open when her kids are outside- very easy to see what is going on.)

Again I am not saying anything to her in the near future or even not so near future in person or by letter. (I did apologize on shabbos- but as I said she doesnt seem to mind - would rather have children watching her cook and eat then put up curtains) I am quite friendly with her.

but (almost) no one seems to get why it would bother me at all- so trying to clarify what the situation actually is. its not a house. Its not looking into a huge yard. its not like I am trying to see in all day.
we are talking about windows that are literally IN the (small) play area.

and it would be completely unfair to say dont take my kid outside. kids need to be outside. they need fresh air, they need to let off energy, they need to run around. they need to socialize. and its not possible in our small apartments.

So as long as 1 person doesnt think im nuts for being uncomfortable with the fact that I can see straight into her house without trying to look then ill be reassured (again, I am not doing anything at this time)

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, May 06 2013, 12:05 pm

OP, you're doing fine. Your son is not the age of chinuch, and you're not a bad mother for his behavior. You're a good mother for trying to find out how to guide him not to do this as he begins to understand. You're a good neighbor for trying to respect her privacy as well as not making her feel uncomfortable when you can't really do so.

I am getting the feeling that most posters here haven't completely understood the situation (or else they wouldn't be so harsh to you), but I think I have a good understanding of what you are dealing with, and I think you're doing the best you can and you're doing the right thing.