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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jul 18 2013, 6:26 am
happyone wrote:
Great idea! I would make sure a rav reviews your book to make sure it's all halachically sound. for example, different rabbanim have same take on deriving pleasure from animals therefore not muktza. we were told specifically that pets were muktza Shabbos regardless. (bunnies, parrot and kitten)


DH will make sure that the book is reviewed and endorsed by several different rabbis, and bring all opinions. This will be a "jumping off point" to give you ideas of what you should ask your own rabbi. Of course you must follow the rulings that you receive for your own situation and community. Things are rarely cut and dried.

I'll give you an example. One of my little dogs has a bone deformity that prevents her from jumping up on the couch. She gets very upset if she can't get up there. The other dog is healthy, and can jump up easily on her own. The disabled dog relies on me to pick her up, the other one doesn't. Therefore, the healthy dog is muktza, and the disabled one isn't!
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chani8




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jul 18 2013, 8:45 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
chani8 wrote:
Thanks, FF. You answered the bird question. The puppy thing happened a long time ago. DD noticed a tiny tiny puppy wimpering just outside the front gate on shobbos morning. Without thinking, she snatched him up and brought him in. Once inside my house, there was nothing to do, as he was not leaving. So what was DD over on, I'm just curious?


Carrying and trapping. Nothing to do about it now, just move on! (I would have taken in the puppy too, and then thought "oops!" later. embarrassed )


It wasn't carrying, as there is an eruv.

Trapping? It was not a wild animal. It wanted to come in and be cuddled and fed.

I was thinking it was muktza because it was not yet our pet. ??
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vintagebknyc




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jul 18 2013, 9:24 am
chani8 wrote:
FranticFrummie wrote:
chani8 wrote:
Thanks, FF. You answered the bird question. The puppy thing happened a long time ago. DD noticed a tiny tiny puppy wimpering just outside the front gate on shobbos morning. Without thinking, she snatched him up and brought him in. Once inside my house, there was nothing to do, as he was not leaving. So what was DD over on, I'm just curious?


Carrying and trapping. Nothing to do about it now, just move on! (I would have taken in the puppy too, and then thought "oops!" later. embarrassed )


It wasn't carrying, as there is an eruv.

Trapping? It was not a wild animal. It wanted to come in and be cuddled and fed.

I was thinking it was muktza because it was not yet our pet. ??


wouldn't this be considered saving the life of a pet?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jul 18 2013, 10:20 am
chani8 wrote:
FranticFrummie wrote:
chani8 wrote:
Thanks, FF. You answered the bird question. The puppy thing happened a long time ago. DD noticed a tiny tiny puppy wimpering just outside the front gate on shobbos morning. Without thinking, she snatched him up and brought him in. Once inside my house, there was nothing to do, as he was not leaving. So what was DD over on, I'm just curious?


Carrying and trapping. Nothing to do about it now, just move on! (I would have taken in the puppy too, and then thought "oops!" later. embarrassed )


It wasn't carrying, as there is an eruv.

Trapping? It was not a wild animal. It wanted to come in and be cuddled and fed.

I was thinking it was muktza because it was not yet our pet. ??


I'm not sure. I guess it depends on when you "take ownership".

Vintage, I think it would depend on if the puppy was tiny and it was snowing outside, vs. being healthy and on a sunny day. Just hanging around on the sidewalk isn't usually threatening unless there are other circumstance.

Just a reminder folks, please don't take anything I say here as concrete. None of this has been run by a more knowledgeable rav yet. I may be wrong, or your rav may hold differently. I'm pretty centrist, but your rav may be more lenient or machmir. YMMV.
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Ashrei




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2013, 1:16 am
What's their status regarding financial and emotional priority compared to other responsibilities, such as towards children, housekeeping, extended family, neighbors & friends, other ppl's animals, etc. Even if we kind of know it, since ppl get so caught up in their pets, it may be worth it to be explicit regarding where they should stand in our lives according to torah.

Also, when it's ok/not ok to euthanize.
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chani8




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2013, 2:45 am
I really never thought about this stuff.

Are we halachically allowed to save the life of an animal on shobbos?
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vintagebknyc




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2013, 6:28 am
chani8 wrote:
I really never thought about this stuff.

Are we halachically allowed to save the life of an animal on shobbos?


halacha says we should do what we can not to let the animal suffer--this means asking a jewish neighbor to call a vet, or bring you to a vet.

I don't know what happens if there is no jewish neighbor, but I find it hard to believe that hashem would find it acceptable to allow an animal to die because there are no gentiles around.
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TehillaHadassah




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2013, 2:21 pm
Is it ok to hold your Crested Gecko on Shabbos?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2013, 5:37 pm
Ashrei wrote:
What's their status regarding financial and emotional priority compared to other responsibilities, such as towards children, housekeeping, extended family, neighbors & friends, other ppl's animals, etc. Even if we kind of know it, since ppl get so caught up in their pets, it may be worth it to be explicit regarding where they should stand in our lives according to torah.

Also, when it's ok/not ok to euthanize.


Excellent point, this should probably be included in the first chapter!

My philosophy is "People Before Pets", but I do know some folks (usually non Jews) who get a bit too carried away with their "fur babies". Rolling Eyes It's hard to say how much is halacha, and how much is just plain common sense. If your puppy is hungry and your baby is crying, attend the baby first. If your Shabbos guest is allergic or phobic, or even just uncomfortable, the pet goes in the bedroom with the door closed.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2013, 5:41 pm
chani8 wrote:
I really never thought about this stuff.

Are we halachically allowed to save the life of an animal on shobbos?


Yes, maybe, and no. Tongue Out

It absolutely depends on the situation, and what is needed to be done to save it. That's going to be it's own chapter, for sure.

It would be helpful to have a list of "what if?" questions, to jump start our research. Your pet? Neighbor's pet? Wild animal? Stray pet animal? What kind of danger is it in? Will it cause a chillul Hashem if your neighbors see you "neglecting" your pet's needs? Are your kids screaming in terror because Fido is yelping in pain?
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2013, 5:44 pm
TehillaHadassah wrote:
Is it ok to hold your Crested Gecko on Shabbos?


My very machmir Yeshivish neighbors let their kids hold their Leopard Geckos on Shabbos, but the adults don't handle them. I guess it's because the geckos "belong" to the children, and the adults don't feel the need to handle them. I'll have to ask them why.
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persephonefalls




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jul 28 2013, 5:22 pm
As per the earlier discussion of the puppy, what if you see your friend's lost cat/dog/other pet on shabbat? If the animal is domesticated, it's likely in danger if it's on the loose--can you capture it to return it to its owner?

Another good topic to address (though I don't need an answer, I've AYLORed it) is feeding you pets on pesach.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Jul 28 2013, 7:42 pm
persephonefalls wrote:
As per the earlier discussion of the puppy, what if you see your friend's lost cat/dog/other pet on shabbat? If the animal is domesticated, it's likely in danger if it's on the loose--can you capture it to return it to its owner?

Another good topic to address (though I don't need an answer, I've AYLORed it) is feeding you pets on pesach.


Your best bet it so notify the owner that their pet is loose, and have them deal with it. Cats and dogs are usually smarter than you think, and can dodge trouble until you can locate their owner. If you have non Jewish neighbors, you can quickly explain to them that you cannot trap the animal, and would they please do the owner a favor and retrieve it. You can try to chase it into a safer location if you think it will comply, but you cannot trap it.

Pesach will definitely be it's own chapter!
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persephonefalls




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Aug 06 2013, 10:02 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
persephonefalls wrote:
As per the earlier discussion of the puppy, what if you see your friend's lost cat/dog/other pet on shabbat? If the animal is domesticated, it's likely in danger if it's on the loose--can you capture it to return it to its owner?

Another good topic to address (though I don't need an answer, I've AYLORed it) is feeding you pets on pesach.


Your best bet it so notify the owner that their pet is loose, and have them deal with it. Cats and dogs are usually smarter than you think, and can dodge trouble until you can locate their owner. If you have non Jewish neighbors, you can quickly explain to them that you cannot trap the animal, and would they please do the owner a favor and retrieve it. You can try to chase it into a safer location if you think it will comply, but you cannot trap it.


I'm not saying this is a wrong answer, per se, but think realistically about the actual situation for a second. If a pet is genuinely lost--like, lost pet poster lost--it's often scared and skittish. The owner desperately wants it back. If you don't snag it right away, chances are good this animal will not ever be reunited with the people who love it and want to care for it properly.

I was once staying with friends in another city for shabbat. It was a beautiful day so we were eating lunch in their backyard outside. A super friendly cat was hanging out, being totally patient with all the kids who were crowding her--it was obvious she was someone's pet. I could even see the marks of where a collar used to be. And then one of the adults commented that he thought he had seen this cat on missing pet posters around the neighborhood.

I knew that cat belonged to someone who loved her. And I knew that if I didn't snag her and return her to them, she could get hit by a car, or hurt by an animal, but she almost certainly wouldn't be return to her person, who was worried sick about her.

But it was shabbat, and it wasn't my home, and I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. It may be assur to trap pets on shabbat, but let me tell you, I regret not helping that cat to this day.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Aug 06 2013, 10:49 pm
persephonefalls wrote:
FranticFrummie wrote:
persephonefalls wrote:
As per the earlier discussion of the puppy, what if you see your friend's lost cat/dog/other pet on shabbat? If the animal is domesticated, it's likely in danger if it's on the loose--can you capture it to return it to its owner?

Another good topic to address (though I don't need an answer, I've AYLORed it) is feeding you pets on pesach.


Your best bet it so notify the owner that their pet is loose, and have them deal with it. Cats and dogs are usually smarter than you think, and can dodge trouble until you can locate their owner. If you have non Jewish neighbors, you can quickly explain to them that you cannot trap the animal, and would they please do the owner a favor and retrieve it. You can try to chase it into a safer location if you think it will comply, but you cannot trap it.


I'm not saying this is a wrong answer, per se, but think realistically about the actual situation for a second. If a pet is genuinely lost--like, lost pet poster lost--it's often scared and skittish. The owner desperately wants it back. If you don't snag it right away, chances are good this animal will not ever be reunited with the people who love it and want to care for it properly.

I was once staying with friends in another city for shabbat. It was a beautiful day so we were eating lunch in their backyard outside. A super friendly cat was hanging out, being totally patient with all the kids who were crowding her--it was obvious she was someone's pet. I could even see the marks of where a collar used to be. And then one of the adults commented that he thought he had seen this cat on missing pet posters around the neighborhood.

I knew that cat belonged to someone who loved her. And I knew that if I didn't snag her and return her to them, she could get hit by a car, or hurt by an animal, but she almost certainly wouldn't be return to her person, who was worried sick about her.

But it was shabbat, and it wasn't my home, and I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. It may be assur to trap pets on shabbat, but let me tell you, I regret not helping that cat to this day.


I get it, I really do. I'm such a sucker when it comes to animals. Halacha is halalcha, but that doesn't mean we have to be happy about it.
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BlueRose52




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 22 2014, 8:16 am
You might want to contact R' Natan Slifkin about this issue. From what I gather, the man has a veritable zoo in his house, made of both common and exotic animals. I'm sure he's researched the halachos related to these topics quite thoroughly. (Read the third paragraph from the bottom here to get an idea of his collection: http://www.rationalistjudaism.......html)

He also wrote a book on the topic a few years ago: Man and Beast: Our Relationships with Animals in Jewish Law and Thought, but I'd guess that he's gathered a lot of new material since that was published.
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dimyona




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 22 2014, 8:46 am
persephonefalls wrote:
I'm not saying this is a wrong answer, per se, but think realistically about the actual situation for a second. If a pet is genuinely lost--like, lost pet poster lost--it's often scared and skittish. The owner desperately wants it back. If you don't snag it right away, chances are good this animal will not ever be reunited with the people who love it and want to care for it properly.

I was once staying with friends in another city for shabbat. It was a beautiful day so we were eating lunch in their backyard outside. A super friendly cat was hanging out, being totally patient with all the kids who were crowding her--it was obvious she was someone's pet. I could even see the marks of where a collar used to be. And then one of the adults commented that he thought he had seen this cat on missing pet posters around the neighborhood.

I knew that cat belonged to someone who loved her. And I knew that if I didn't snag her and return her to them, she could get hit by a car, or hurt by an animal, but she almost certainly wouldn't be return to her person, who was worried sick about her.

But it was shabbat, and it wasn't my home, and I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing. It may be assur to trap pets on shabbat, but let me tell you, I regret not helping that cat to this day.


There are plenty of halachic ways to do this. If you can get the cat to follow you willingly into a large space, you're allowed to shut the door behind it.
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BlueRose52




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 22 2014, 9:05 am
I know I'm not a posek, but I think this topic is one which really needs a drastic rethinking of the issue, since our contemporary social norms are so drastically different regarding animals than they were in prior generations. This new way of viewing the issue is not just in regards to distinguishing contemporary norms from earlier generations, but even within our current era, we all know that there are some communities who look on the idea of pet ownership as absolutely crazy. Someone with such a perspective is simply unqualified to pasken on these issues. In my opinion, if you think the idea of having a loving relationship with an animal is outrageous, then you shouldn't be paskening shailos on that topic for people who do feel that way.

I understand some people might take issue with this approach, but really, it's not so novel. It's no different than how halachos regarding the norms of what women can do have adjusted based on society changing. We don't look to halachic psak from 100 years ago on that issue, since we know that the poskim from that dor didn't take into account how much society has changed on that issue. I think it's totally reasonable to have the same approach regarding these laws of animal ownership.

Also, just like a Modern Orthodox person wouldn't think it sensible to go to a chassidish posek regarding whatever shailos come up in their lives, since they obviously don't share the person's priorities and see the issues through the same halachic lens, so too a dedicated pet owner shouldn't be seeking halachic opinions on that matter from someone who doesn't understand where they're coming from. Like every other halachic matter where one seeks advice, one should always be speaking to someone who really "gets them".

My 2 cents.
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BlueRose52




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 22 2014, 9:18 am
A further thought:

Even if one has a rav who "gets it", who understand the deep, loving relationship people can have with their pets, the problem is that most of the published or well-known psak on these issues which is already out there, and upon which a contemporary rav will look towards for ideas, is from people who don't have the positive view of pet ownership. So even if you have a Rav who "gets you", unless he's a halachically innovative thinker, and willing to break with the traditional view, he may not have much precedent on what to rely, in which case there's really no avoiding the halachic decisions which animal lovers find extremely hard to live with.

This is why I think the whole issue needs to be rethought by people who truly do "get it".
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dimyona




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 22 2014, 9:21 am
Yep. I personally know of rabbanim who consider these questions in the category of what bracha to make on pork, which is a pretty asinine classification.
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