Selling chometz such as pasta and flour?

Marion

Wed, Mar 21 2007, 3:34 am

shalhevet wrote:

Marion wrote:

Anything that's sealed that can be given away to non-Jews, we give away.

There is a halachic problem of לא תחוננם
unless you will get benefit out of giving it to a non-Jew (eg someone who works for you and then might work better).

In EY there are tzedaka organizations which collect chometz just before Pesach. There is no problem, even according to the machmir view of selling the enormous quantities they have because it is considered a hefsed merube (great loss). They sell it and after Pesach distribute it to needy families.

A halachic problem of what? Sometimes we give it to my ILs' Phillipina help, sometimes we just give it away. What difference does it make? They should starve instead when we have perfectly good food we could give them? What's the difference between giving it directly and giving it to an organization?

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 21 2007, 3:47 am

Marion wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Marion wrote:

Anything that's sealed that can be given away to non-Jews, we give away.

I said before which halachic problem it is (you can look it up or pm me). Giving to the Filipina help is not a problem, because presumably she'll do a better job, even subconsciously. I was talking about giving to an organization which distributes it to Jews after Pesach. Of course you can give it directly to a Jew who will eat it before Pesach or sell it. Just most Jews, however needy, do not appreciate 5 packets of macaroni turning up on their doorstep two days before Pesach. 8)

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 21 2007, 6:29 am

mali wrote:

All people sell Chometz Gomur. All our kitchen utensils are just that.

If you clean your kitchen utensils you don't have to sell them at all. And even those people who sell them, don't sell the actual utensils but the chometz stuck on/ absorbed in them (another thorny halachic issue if you can even do that). If you sell your utensils you will have to toivel them all after Pesach shock

since they were in the possession of a non-Jew.

No, not everyone sells chometz gamur. Chometz gamur is things like pasta, cookies, cake, washed flour etc.

mali

Wed, Mar 21 2007, 6:50 am

shalhevet wrote:

keilim can definitely be chometz gomur, just like they can be milchigs and fleishigs. how do you sell chometz that's absorbed in a keili? if the [gentile] comes to claim it, what do you give him? (and I'm specifically bringing up this halachic argument)

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 21 2007, 6:56 am

mali wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

That's why I think many rabbonim hold that you can't sell the chometz absorbed in the kli. The chometz absorbed is the ta'am, not actual chometz. If you would cook with them the ta'am would be released into the food, but it is not something tangible.
You are supposed to clean your keilim thoroughly before Pesach and remove any visible chometz. If it is burned on or something it is lo raui le'achilas kelev. Usually with mixers or things where I can't get into all the cracks I scrub with detergent, which is also lo raui le'achilas kelev. It is definitely worth spending more time on this, than refolding clean clothes in the closets. Wink

MyKidsRQte

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:40 am

I have 2-3 cabinets locked(sold) each year full of food spices, canned products, and things that could be kosher lepeisach but arent because they were among chametz, cookbooks, utensils, etc

I give away all bread products, rice, beans, flour, cereals, etc regardless if they are opened or closed

mali

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 3:22 am

Before all of you panic, I have looked into this issue in the past, and there's no need to worry, because the stuff never actually becomes the [gentile]'s posession. He gives some "down payment" for it, but Lema'aseh he doesn't think of claiming it ever. (Of course, if he decides not to sell it back to you after Pesach, then it does belong to him, and then if he changes his mind, you'd have to Toivel everything, regardless if he picked it up or not. But the way it's done today, with the [gentile] not having access to anything, it doesn't need Tvila).

shalhevet

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 3:36 am

mali wrote:

Check with your LOR because not everyone holds like this. Ask what's best to do - to sell the keilim, the chometz in them, or not to sell them at all.

shalhevet

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 6:18 am

Also the chometz absorbed in the keilim doesn't have to be cleaned, since we only have a chiyuv (obligation) to clean איפה שידו משגת - only as far as is possible to physically reach. Chometz which is burned on etc is לא ראוי לאכילת כלב - not fit for a dog to eat. And the rest - well you do your best and that's why we say כל חמירא .

613

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 12:38 pm

NY2434 wrote:

I give away all bread products, rice, beans, flour, cereals, etc regardless if they are opened or closed

Last I checked, rice and beans were not chametz. Yes, they're kitniyos, so you should sell them, but absolutely no need to get rid of them!

And I agree with Shalhevet. We do NOT sell our keilim. We sell the chametz that may be on our keilim. We do not sell chametz gamur, but even if there are crumbs of chametz gamur on my mixer, we don't have to worry about those.

mummy-bh

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 2:17 pm

613 wrote:

NY2434 wrote:

I give away all bread products, rice, beans, flour, cereals, etc regardless if they are opened or closed

Last I checked, rice and beans were not chametz. Yes, they're kitniyos, so you should sell them, but absolutely no need to get rid of them!

Ashkenazim don't sell kitnios. It's not chametz!!!

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 3:04 pm

(firstly, I retract my previous post...apparently there are those who hold flour is chometz gamur.)
Second, right --there is no need to sell kitniyos. One may own it, one may possible be allowed to benefit from it, one just may not eat it unless it's her minhag.