When does teaching responsibility veer into overburdening?

morah

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 12:59 pm

The chevra kadisha thread has veered into a discussion on placing burdens on older children. I'm at work now (and pumping is super boring) and don't really have to time give my opinion- maybe later- but I figured I'd at least start the thread, since I think this topic deserves its own thread.

So: where do you draw the line between reasonable age-appropriate responsibility and relying on children to be extra "parents"?

Go! Hope to join in later...

amother

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 1:12 pm

This happens to be a very very big pet peeve of mine (that's why I am anon)
Older kids should help with housework, I don't believe they should be helping with childcare. They didn't ask for siblings you are the parent.
I remember growing up I had a friend who was not allowed to play at other kids houses on shabbos afternoon. I was allowed to go to her however, her parents would go to sleep for a few hours and she would be in charge of everyone else. I went a few times and never went back again. What fun was it when the younger siblings kept bothering us. Oh and we were eight to ten at the time.

greenfire

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 1:23 pm

all too often I see children who are left raising their siblings while their parents are off doing mitzvas ... yeah it infuriates me - nobody should be a parent at the age of a child ... it's too burdensome

teaching kids responsibility is quite different ... as a family unit everyone needs to pitch in ... but pitching in does NOT include raising children that YOU the parent decide to have

pitching in means taking out garbage, sweeping the floor, cleaning your room & folding your laundry ... things of a community sort rather than things pertaining to rearing children whilst still a child ...

freidasima

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 1:50 pm

People, including children, are part of a kehilla. They have to realize from a young age that they are not an island, their family is not an island and a lot of what they get in life is kehilla dependent. Hence they have to give back to the kehilla and not only to their families.

There is a big difference between what I call "stam chessed" and specific mitzva kehilla dependent chessed. The thread on the chevra kadisha was for me an example of a mitzva kehilla dependent chessed. One MUST have a chevra kadisha in a kehilla if they bury their own dead. One MUST have a mikva if it is an isolated kehilla. One must have a shul to daven in if it is an isolated kehilla etc.

That's very different than making food for pregnant women or women after giving birth. etc. There is no putting off a funeral until one finds people in a few days, or a few weeks, to do the tahara. It's very different than anything else. It's a necessity. Same as having a mikva. Same as having a shul. Although there can be a substitute for a mikva - a river, and a substitute for a shul - someone's living room with a makeshift aron kodesh.

There is NO substitute for a chevra kadisha. Hence I think in that case it is very important to teach a child old enough to understand that it is a tremendous mitzva and necessity for the kehilla and she should be proud that she can help her mother be part of it and get part of the sachar by facilitating her mother's being there.

This is in a kehilla where there is no paid chevra kadisha like in EY. I am talking about a kehilla where a chevra kadisha has to be voluntary.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 1:59 pm

I think it's a good thing as long as the older kid is agreeable and having fun.

I never, ever kept an older child from a social activity in order to help me. Some of their friends were kept home to help their mothers.

My older kids would beg me to let them miss school because I needed their help. I think I let a kid leave school early once in over 20 years, when I was hospitalized and DH unavailable.

But yes, we did have a thing where the older ones took out the younger ones every Thursday afternoon so that I could make Shabbos, etc.

Now my 12 year old got to pay back my 23 year old, by visiting over Chanukah to watch her nephew because there's a new baby in the house.

Barbara

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:08 pm

On the thread OP is referring to, IMNSHO the OP was asking her 12 year old DD to do something she wasn't ready for, that is, being responsible for an awake baby and 2 hopefully sleeping younger children for more than an hour at night. It would not be too much to ask a 15 year old.

Asking a 12 year old to get breakfast for her siblings in the morning because the baby isn't feeling well and mom has to deal with him, and dad has an early meeting, is not asking too much. Asking a junior high kid to get up every morning to get little ones fed and ready for school is.

Occasionally asking a teenager to take her brother to the park Shabbat afternoon isn't asking too much. Telling her that is her job every week, to the exclusion of spending time with friends, is.

Asking your kid to pick up a couple of items on the way home isn't asking too much. Asking him to do a minimal weekly shopping when you're on a business trip and DH sprained his ankle isn't asking too much. Assigning him all the weekly shopping every week is.

Asking your kid to sweep the kitchen floor twice a week isn't asking too much. Asking him to scrub the entire kitchen every night is.

When what you are asking a child to do regularly and substantially interferes with his job of being a kid, then its asking too much. When it constitutes an abdication of adult responsibility, and placing that responsibility on the child, it is asking too much.

smss

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:10 pm

Barbara wrote:

don't you think 'being ready' for this kind of thing depends more on the child's maturity than age? at age 12 I was more than capable of doing this.

Barbara

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:16 pm

smss wrote:

Barbara wrote:

don't you think 'being ready' for this kind of thing depends more on the child's maturity than age? at age 12 I was more than capable of doing this.

Sure, it depends upon maturity. But I'm extremely doubtful that anyone but the rarest 12 year old has that kind of maturity.

I'm not talking about the maturity to deal with things if everything is OK.

I'm talking about the maturity to deal with the situation if things go horrifically wrong. Getting everyone out and to safety in the case of an electrical fire. What to do if a child somehow gets into the medicine cabinet and ingests something that she should not have. Or if a child suddenly spikes a high fever, has a convulsion, falls down the stairs. Remember, "call mom" isn't a possibility in this case. I've yet to meet a 12 year old whom I believe could handle those things.

m in Israel

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:19 pm

Barbara wrote:

I think this is a fantastic post and some great examples. I am not sure, though, how you concluded that the OP of the other thread was asking her daughter to do something she "wasn't ready for." OP clearly stated that her daughter already babysat for other people as a job -- so clearly she was perfectly capable of caring for a child. OP was talking about 2 times a month for 1 to 2 hours. So to add to your examples:

IMVHO, Asking your kid to watch her younger sibling once every other week for 1 to 2 hours (with the added factor that if any specific week is to hard, like there is a big test or something, she can say no) isnt asking too much. Asking her to take care of the baby every other night or asking her to take care of supper and bedtime for all 3 kids on a regular basis, is.

bubbebia

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:22 pm

Children do not exist in a vacuum. They are part of a family and a family works together and cares for each other to help maintain it. This doesn't mean that all the responsibility should be placed on the children to care for each other either. All of this is age-dependent and maturity-dependent. It is also time-dependent. There is nothing wrong with asking an older child to watch the kids for a minute or an hour so you can shower, or drop something off at a neighbor or go pick up a gallon of milk. It's part of being in the family and "caring" for each other.

However, there were many other issues that might impact what I asked my kids to do. First, how old is the kid and how old and how many are the kids they'd be caring for? I would never have asked my 12 yo to care for sibs that were younger than 5-6 if they were all awake. If they were asleep, no problem for an hour. Especially in this day of instant communication. (When my kids were that age we didn't have cell phones.) I never would have asked my kids to babysit for their sibs at 12 if we were going out for the evening. Even though they wouldn't have needed a sitter themselves, it isn't proper for them to have that kind of responsibility for such a long time. I would get a babysitter. However, at 15 or 16 I had no problem asking them to babysit, although by that age it wouldn't have mattered very much because if my oldest was 16 my youngest was 11 and they were all independent. I would, however, never have asked a kid to do something if there were other circumstances that were important to the kid, like a party, lots of homework or some other activity. I might even have paid the older 2 so they took the job seriously-a couple of bucks, taking them to some special activity, etc.

OP, you alone can make the determination what is appropriate for your child to do. Only you know if she is mature enough to do the job properly and be accepting of her task.

smss

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:27 pm

Barbara wrote:

smss wrote:

Barbara wrote:

don't you think 'being ready' for this kind of thing depends more on the child's maturity than age? at age 12 I was more than capable of doing this.

when I started babysitting, I took the red cross babysitting course, which teaches what to do in those kinds of situations and other emergency situations (burns, choking, etc.). I took it at age 12 and got certified, so it seems the red cross believes a 12 year old is capable of handling these things.

I don't think it's ever safe to leave a babysitter without a parent to call. wasn't the father going to be available by cell phone at least? if not, I agree with you, I wouldn't be comfortable with that.

Peanut2

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:40 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Barbara wrote:

I Remember, "call mom" isn't a possibility in this case.

I do not think it is EVER responsible of a parent to leave a teenage babysitter without an emergency contact number. But why must it be only mom?

Whenever I leave a babysitter I also leave my number, my husbands number, another emergency contact number, any neighbors that can be contacted, etc. I also always tell them that in case of anything that seems like it might be a real emergency please call 911. I have lots of stories I heard about people stupidly not calling 911. But an emergency requires a person who is smart, capable, and not too young.
One of the reason I avoided the young BY girls near me was that they were too young and inexperienced to deal with an emergency. Fine with kids, not so quick on their feet. The older ones weren't into babysitting, sadly. Anyway, what do you do in an emergency if the phone isn't working? Would they be able to get multiple kids out in case of G-d forbid a fire? Would they know or have enough common sense to keep themselves and the children safe in an unexpected situation? Are they smart enough not to cause a fire or an emergency situation?

Plus, I recently had a 16 yo babysit. When I came home she apologized that my daughter was up and not asleep, which was fine, but the place smelled! I asked if maybe there was a poopy diaper that needed changing and she said yeah, I think so. Are you kidding? You are the babysitter. Change the diaper! (The whole place smelled, so the poop had been there for a long time.)

harriet

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:50 pm

Barbara wrote:

smss wrote:

Barbara wrote:

don't you think 'being ready' for this kind of thing depends more on the child's maturity than age? at age 12 I was more than capable of doing this.

Barbara, at what age do you think someone is ready to babysit? I have 2 seventh graders I hire on a regular basis (separately) to babysit for my kids-they were highly recommended by others, they are very mature and capable, my kids love them. . . and-they are willing! I have a harder time getting high schoolers in my town to babysit (they are busy with schoolwork, extracurricular activities etc) and these two girls are always happy to come (and they charge less!)

From your post, it seems like you do not think this is wise (I leave them in situations similar to what the OP of the Chevra Kadisha post described). What age do you think is the minimum age for babysitting?

amother

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:54 pm

Barbara wrote:

m in Israel wrote:

Barbara wrote:

I Remember, "call mom" isn't a possibility in this case.

I do not think it is EVER responsible of a parent to leave a teenage babysitter without an emergency contact number. But why must it be only mom?

Because in this case, "call mom" was not possible, and the OP didn't make it clear whether or not dad would be reachable.

OP of CK thread. Yes dad is reachable (but not so helpful as a full 30-45 minutes away) but I also mentioned the friends/neighbors/family seconds away (by foot or phone) that DD is perfectly comfortable calling/running to, etc

amother

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 2:56 pm

I have mixed feelings about this.

my mother started a business when I was little, and bh has been very successful. yet, we were always expected to help. I mean always. at the time we obv all resented it, saying things like "its doesn't say XXX company and Family". looking back my parents were pretty good about it, we never missed anything social, or any trips, or lacked anything due to the business. but we did carry responsibilities that none of my friends had.my older sister and I were responsible for alot of the cooking, my brothers helped my mother deliver her stuff...

but I have to give it to my mother she really instilled independence in all of us.
and then I see my dh's siblings and they dont know from the kitchen from the living room.

Emotional

Mon, Dec 16 2013, 3:04 pm

amother wrote:

That's a very extreme example... but I don't think it's so bad to ask my 11-year-old to entertain the baby for 10 minutes so I can take my son to the bus stop - is it?