What do you consider poor?

ectomorph

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 6:03 pm

Spinoff from http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....ight=

What makes someone poor?

I consider someone poor if they have trouble covering the bills, comfortable if they can cover the bills, and rich if they can cover their monthly bills and save for the future.

About half the frum people I know are poor, most of the rest are comfortable, and I only know a few rich people.

I think having significant debt moves you into the next lower category, so if you are poor with debt, very poor, comfortable with debt, poor, and rich with debt, comfortable.

The poll in the other thread was more useful in telling us where people place themselves than what is rich. This poll is a little more direct. I'm curious if the results will correlate.

There are more options than above in case you're not sure where you belong, and because I love having many options in a poll.

ectomorph

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 6:11 pm

Maya wrote:

In what scenario would rich people have debt?

Having 300k in loans/mortgage but earning 250k a year with 0-2 young kids.

You have enough money to cover expenses and even put some away for retirement, but you're trying to pay back loans at the same time.

I know several people like this... yes they could live very frugally and pay it back in a few years but it's more likely to take 10 years since they don't have any spare time to cook, clean, and coupon.

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 6:31 pm

I rather be poor and happy, truly happy, than very rich and miserable.

There was someone I knew who was a billionaire. She had a wonderful husband, her kids all got married, very well. Nothing lacked in their home. She had lots of friends and family. Except, she suffered from depression. For years her husband tried to help her, as well as, her kids and close family (those that knew)

One day her depression got the better of her, and she jumped from her penthouse apartment, noon, on Shabbat.

I rather be poor

monseychick

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 6:35 pm

amother wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAGKpoVFbmw

sky

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 6:36 pm

I think comfortable is so relative. Being able to pay bills - what type of bills?

Person A can be super comfortable living in a small house, pushing a Graco Stroller, buying very inexpensive clothing, buying sales, drive their car until it doesn't pay anymore, etc. All bills are paid on time and there is what to eat and where to live and tuition is covered.

And the Person B would feel such a life is super poor. For them to be comfortable you have to live in a 4 bedroom home (minimum) with a kosher style kitchen, push a high end stroller, dress your kid in European clothing and a trip to Miami and a ski vacation each year plus a summer home in the country and a 2 year lease on the latest car.

So even if bills are covered and life can be lived not everyone feels 'comfortable'.

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 6:42 pm

Maya wrote:

In what scenario would rich people have debt?

Business loans, mortgages, construction loans. Lot of things.

But the focus here is wrong.

I know people who spend like its going out of style. Their homes are in constant states of renovation; their kids need to go to this program or on that trip. They're always broke, but I have a hard time saying they're poor.

Then I know people who can squeeze a penny until it cries. Extreme couponers. I've even met (online) dumpster divers. Some of them don't make much, but they can save because of their frugal habits. I have a hard time saying they're rich.

"Poor" is having difficulty affording basics -- a vermin-free place to live; sufficient heat in the winter; sufficient nutritious food (obesity and poverty co-exist because non-nutritious food is cheap), clothing.

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 7:15 pm

sky wrote:

Person A describes me. We live in a small basement apartment. We BH could afford to move to a bigger apartment but we chose to stay here, living below our means and BH put $2000/month into savings.
We have a reputation for being very frugal, people think we are living hand-to-mouth but reality is the outside word doesn't see my bank account BH! I dont consider us rich, we are saving up for a house.

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 7:47 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

No offense, but only someone who has never had money can call it a burden. The rest of us call it a blessing.

"Whoever said money doesn't buy happiness never had any."

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 7:51 pm

I would consider us comfortable with a little extra, but I HATE where we live. I can stay here and be what we are or move and more than likely be poor and struggle and stress my husband out. That's why we moved to begin with. I don't know which is better. I'm in general unhappy, but day to day I'm fine.

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 7:56 pm

amother wrote:

Frumdoc wrote:

The more you have, the more you want.

We strive to keep our needs and wishes within limits that enable us to appreciate simple things, I have not had the experience of being wealthy nor would I wish for that burden.

No offense, but only someone who has never had money can call it a burden. The rest of us call it a blessing.

"Whoever said money doesn't buy happiness never had any."

No offense, but only someone who has never had money can call it a burden. The rest of us call it a blessing.

"Whoever said money doesn't buy happiness never had any."

I agree with frumdocs. I always tell DH if we make it big I want to stay exactly how we are.

We put away a lot of money now toward retirement and wedding funds and give a lot to tzedaka and we live super simply. we own a small house and an older car. I have 4 kids per bedroom, they dress cheap and wear hand me downs. Expensive clothing does nothing for me. We have very little expenses. My kids understand the power of dollar and taking care of what they own.

My parents raised us the same. I wouldn't be surprised if my father has a million dollars put away in savings. But they raised us super simply and they still live super simply. Never stingy.

And as someone who has wealthy friends I don't really think money can buy happiness, it can help, but sometimes creates its own problems and worries and sometimes rips families apart.

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 8:05 pm

I'm the amother you're quoting.

We made it big, and you'd never know. We mostly spend it on tzedakah and private conveniences. We don't even own a house, much less a fancy one.

It's a blessing, the worries that are eliminated by having money is a blessing, and it's my opinion that anyone who can call being wealthy a burden doesn't know HOW to be wealthy in a Torah'dig way.

amother

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 8:49 pm

So interesting to consider myself rich according to this poll with a combined annual income of 45000 after reading the other thread... LOL

We don't EASILY pay off bills, but work hard to live within our means, and make a 300$/month into savings a bill that we'll have fees for if the money is not in our account when the automatic transfer takes place.

zaq

Mon, Jun 23 2014, 10:23 pm

Maya wrote:

In what scenario would rich people have debt?

Most of their assets are illiquid and they borrow to buy stuff for lack of cash on hand;
They borrow to take advantage of investment opportunities while their assets are tied up elsewhere OR because the expected payout is much more than the cost of borrowing;
They are poor money managers, spend without considering how much they have, and end up spending more than they have at the moment;
They're still paying off their student loans, mortgages, etc.

For many people, spending increases with income and often outstrips it. It is a rare and wise person who upgrades only 10% when income climbs 20%.

Whenever people act jealous because soandso has a huge house, late-model luxury car, Pesach in EY every year, all on one income and neither spouse is a diamond merchant or plastic surgeon, I tell them "don't be so admiring. You don't know that all, or any, of it is paid for." It might be, but it's not only little guys who are out of work who go bankrupt. Big moguls do, too.