Photocopying portraits/copying CD's and recipes

Motek

Tue, Jul 26 2005, 6:21 pm

You stated categorically that's it's stealing but it's not so simple!

Quote:

QUESTION: It has become customary for Jewish book publishers and cassette tape producers to prohibit copying or otherwise reproducing any part of their materials under any circumstances. What, if any, is the halachic background for this prohibition?

DISCUSSION: The poskim, in their written works, hardly deal with this issue. It is important, therefore, to present some of the arguments that may be made on EITHER side of the question(4):

On the one hand, it may be PERMISSIBLE to copy such material based, in part, on the following arguments:

COMPLETE OWNERSHIP - When one buys a book or a tape he may do with it whatever he pleases. He may destroy it, lend it to a friend, or make a copy either for himself or for a friend. Since, after all, he paid for the item in full, he is entitled to unrestricted use(5);

INTANGIBLES - Many poskim maintain that it is halachically permissible for one to benefit from "intangibles" such as another person's idea or invention. Once the creator has committed his wisdom or talent to paper or tape, he no longer owns anything of material value. If so, nothing tangible is being taken away from the rightful owner(6).

But a strong case may be made for PROHIBITING copying and reproducing materials:

BENEFITING FROM ANOTHER PERSON'S LABOR - Although, as stated, many poskim do not expressly prohibit benefiting from another person's creativity, when creativity is one's business the rules are different. If by copying someone else's creation you are causing him a business loss, it may be prohibited according to the majority of the poskim(7). [According to a minority view, bais din even has the power to force the copier to pay the publisher whatever profit he has generated from his copying( 8 ).]

GOVERNMENT LAW - In many countries the law prohibits copying or reproducing materials in any form. Halachah follows government law whenever the intent is to protect the safety and welfare of the citizenry(9).

RETENTION OF OWNERSHIP - The publisher may claim that his wares are for sale subject to certain restrictions on the buyer. This parallels the Talmudic case where a seller has the right to withhold certain rights from a buyer(10), provided that he does so at the time of sale. Since the publishers state explicitly that copying is forbidden, it may be argued that their statement is tantamount to a "provisional sale"(11). This is known in halachah as shiur b'mechirah, I.e., a sale with partial retention of ownership.

INTANGIBLES - Some poskim do not differentiate between tangible or intangible possessions. In their opinion, the owner of intangible items has the halachic power to prohibit others from infringing on his ownership(12).

for the rest of the article see:

http://www.torah.org/advanced/......html

for this is yet another, related topic - copying information like this from the Internet

do you need permission????? some websites say you do!

supermom

Wed, Jul 27 2005, 7:39 am

my father in law just made a cd which he is trying to sell. he put the copyright on it we asked him why no one will try to copy what he is doing. so he said everyone does it so inorder to make it look professional so he did it. it could be people are doing the same thing out there.

queen

Wed, Jul 27 2005, 7:58 am

supermom wrote:

my father in law just made a cd which he is trying to sell.

irrelevent of WHY your fil put that copyright symbol on the disc, how would he feel if ppl were duplicating his CD without buying it???

supermom

Wed, Jul 27 2005, 12:04 pm

I don't think anyone would try to copy a cd like his he made one of five kollels around israel learning so when a person wants to learn in his own private home he can feel as if he is in a real kollel when he learns with this cd.

elisecohen

Sun, Dec 04 2005, 6:17 pm

I know many of us have asked each other for recipes from published cookbooks and other similar information. We post to each other in violation of copyright law. My understanding is that it is in violation of halacha, too, but I can't find the copies of the articles by various rebbeim on this topic. I have to look and will post citations as I find them on line.

Anyone have insight? I'm really not trying to attack anyone, just engage in dialogue on the halachas involved. I'm just not sure we should be doing this, and if it is okay halacha (and international law) wise, I'd love to be reassured.

daisy

Sun, Dec 04 2005, 6:25 pm

I don't know what the halacha is on this, but I posted this awhile back about copyright and recipes.

daisy wrote:

I found this statement on another website:

Since the question was posed about copyright related to recipes we did a bit of checking to find out what the actual law is. You can read the US Copyright Office full document here:
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.pdf

Basically what we understand from it is that you can list the ingredients of a recipe but you must word the directions yourself. So please post recipes accordingly. Please do not cut and paste a complete recipe with it's directions without getting permission to reproduce from the copyright owner and placing that in your post.

Crayon210

Sun, Dec 04 2005, 6:32 pm

I don't understand. I bought the Spice and Spirit Cookbook and part of it ripped. Why is it in violation of copyright to have someone give me the recipes online?

Tovah

Sun, Dec 04 2005, 7:26 pm

when I was in school we were told that we couldn't copy a tape but one song was ok, isn't this the same?

BrachaVHatzlocha

Sun, Dec 04 2005, 7:30 pm

if you have the cookbook and you lost a page, I think it's okay to get the recipe.
Otherwise, it sounds like you can share a recipe, just not word-for-word which is copyrighted??
good question!

hisorerus

Sun, Dec 04 2005, 7:44 pm

Having someone email it to you vs having it posted online for the whole world seems like a major difference.

elisecohen

Mon, Dec 05 2005, 7:13 am

Okay, I'm going to start posting links as I find them. Here's the first:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar......html

BrachaVHatzlocha

Sat, Mar 18 2006, 9:21 pm

I just found this thread.
wanted to add that I heard that SOME rabbanim say it's ok to copy if you wouldn't buy it anyway.
for example, I paid $10 for a small sears package. they charge $20 each other portrait sheet. I need another few pictures to give to in-laws etc...but I'm no way paying $40....so then it's ok (I THINK!) to color copy...
but ask your own rov!
btw, there's no walmart or jcpenney around here...sears is getting more expensive...anyone know of any cheap photo places? or coupons for sears??

shopaholic

Sun, Mar 19 2006, 8:07 am

Technically, it's illegal to copy proffessional pictures, but I've been to a frum owned store with a Kodak machine $9 a sheet (cheaper than buying an extra sheet from the studio) & he lets me do it.

BrachaVHatzlocha

Sun, Mar 19 2006, 10:46 am

as stated, it's okay halachically if you wouldn't buy it otherwise.

hisorerus

Sun, Mar 19 2006, 11:03 am

Ask your own Rav, though, because not all Rabbanim hold the same.

shoshb

Sun, Mar 19 2006, 11:34 am

Quote:

it is not right why they should even charge so much money for your wedding picture.

for example if I wanted two pictures enlarged why should I have to pay 100 dollars compared to sixteen dollars? even the small ones were an insane price.

Supermom, you knew how much he charged for copies when you signed the contract, hiring him to take your pictures.
At that time, you had the option of arguing with him, negotiating with him, or choosing a photographer whose price was within your range.
Once you've signed that contract, and he has fulfilled his commitment by taking photographs that were to your liking, you have no right legally or Halachically to infringe his copyright, and have copies made elsewhere without his permission.

IndyMom

Mon, Mar 20 2006, 9:27 am

BrachaVHatzlocha wrote:

as stated, it's okay halachically if you wouldn't buy it otherwise.

There is some lipstick at walgreens that I wouldn't buy because I don't find buying make up a priority for me. I wonder if it is ok halachically to shoplift it since I wouldn't buy it anyway....

chocolate moose

Mon, Nov 20 2006, 3:35 pm

Suppose you want a song from a tape. Your neighbor has that tape. If she would not record the song for you, you would buy the tape.

Therefore, it would be stealing to get a copy of the tape

Now. The real issue. I saw a cookbook. I have no intention of purchasing it, but I would like one recipe.

Would it be stealing to ask someone – who anyway has the cookbook – for it?

Crayon210

Mon, Nov 20 2006, 3:36 pm

At the very least, it's against American law.

Ruchel

Mon, Nov 20 2006, 3:48 pm

I would copy the recipe, no question for me. I don't buy a cookbook for a recipe, and I don't buy a cd for a song either.