something interesting... chachamim and what they know

amother

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 5:07 am

I just heard from Rabbi Yonah Metzger (chief ashkenazic rabbi of israel) that in Rambam's writings he wrote that one can tell if a person is a baal dimyon ( loosely translated as a dreamer or a crazy person) you can know it if he claims that he can create a bird of metal that will fly.

not to get back to the locked topic - but chachomim do not necessarily know EVERYTHING there is to know in the world...

BUT as jews and as chassidim and talmidim etc. (and we're all on much lower levels that these great chachamim) we don't have a right to discuss their faults etc. otherwise why should we follow them? it is our duty to respect them, honour them, follow them and if we don't - then our future and our kids future of living in respect of the torah and it's sages IS DOOMED.

amother because im petrified of you guys! Wink

catonmylap

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 6:27 am

Talmidei chachomim like everyone else are limited to the knowledge of the time period they live in. This is not a fault.

I don't see why this is a hard subject to grasp or how this disrespects them.

If someone builds airplanes today, they are not a baal dimyon, but if they say they are going to build a space ship--I would say they are----but maybe in another 500 years, we'll be the ones laughed at for saying that. The principle can still be the same; the example just needs to shift. This is not disrespecting the Rambam.

Last edited by catonmylap on Wed, Oct 17 2007, 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total

TammyTammy

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 1:27 pm

Just to chime in my own two cents here, but catonmylap's point is *exactly* the point I tried to make in the other thread.

Just to put it into perspective, two hundred years from now, someone will be able to say about me that there is no way that I could have created a teleportation device. Is that disrespectful to me? Of course its not, because I live in a technological environment when such a thing is still impossible. That doesn't take anything away from me or mean that I am ignorant or foolish... it means that I lived in the time period that I did. The current technological environment does not support the invention of teleportation devices.

The same holds true for the Rambam. He lived a thousand years ago. As such, he did not have access to the medical advances that we do. Likewise, today's doctors don't have access to those that doctors three centuries from now will have. That doesn't make today's doctors "ignorant" or "foolish" or "naive," it simply shows the technological level of the society in which they live.

Tammy

Motek

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 5:54 pm

There were two issues in the other thread. Only one is mentioned here, whether Chazal or Rishonim had information that only became widely known centuries later.

The other issue, the one I took exception to, was saying Chazal were wrong. Interesting how you skip that now, tammy.

TammyTammy

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 6:05 pm

Motek wrote:

I didn't skip it... it's a correlary of the same discussion.

Could Chazal have been in possession of knowledge that only came to light later? Certainly. Does that mean that *everything* they said about scientific matters is correct? No - they certainly could have been wrong on scientific matters.

Tammy

Motek

Wed, Oct 17 2007, 8:05 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

No - they certainly could have been wrong on scientific matters.

It's a different discussion because in this case you are saying that parts of the Oral Torah are incorrect. Is one yotzei the mitzva of Talmud Torah when learning them? Does one say the Torah blessings before learning them? More importantly, why should I believe anything they say if they're wrong on certain matters? Was Moshe Rabeinu given incorrect information by G-d at Sinai?

Motek

Thu, Oct 25 2007, 6:49 pm

amother wrote:

That's not what the Rambam says. In his Shmona Perakim, first chapter, the Rambam speaks about various abilities that man has, one being imagination (dimyon). He says it entails remembering things you experienced and putting together some of them, mixing imagery so that he can picture things he never experienced and cannot experience, such as imagining an iron ship racing through the air with nothing powering it, a person with his head in the heavens and his feet on the ground, an animal with 1000 eyes, etc.

The commentary in my Rambam explains - a person sees two things like a ship on the water and a bird flying and then his imagination combines the two into an iron ship racing through the air.