Imamothes please identify ur 'sector'..

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 7:29 am

etky wrote:

Do you differentiate then between MO and traditional, observant Conservative Jews (they may be few but they do exist) who adhere strictly to the halachic decisions of the Conservative rabbinic leadership?

Yes I definitely do. If Judiasm was a spectrum, I'd say MO is closer to Ultra Orthodoxy than reform and conservative movements.

Like I said, I believe such groups are doing a lot right, and lot of the things and values we both have in common, but I do feel there areas that are just simply interpreted incorrectly, leaving my understanding to see those paths as ultimately unvalid and partially flawed.

I have many MO friends, and I would never tell them that their derech is wrong, such as I would never tell a yeshivish friend that I think she is wrong for doing something in a spiritual area too.

I definitely respect members of these groups, and we can all learn from one another, and like I said, many things ARE done correctly, and we share most of the same values, and our end goals are the same, and we agree on many matters. I would definitely call these people Orthodox and religous.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 7:34 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Wow, if everyone thought the way you did, there would be exen more division than there already is. If modern orthodox people thought that the charedi or chassidish way of life as not valid, what then? We would each have our on separate judaism. Ho sad is that.

Can you tell us what you think modern orthodox people dont do in judaism that makes their religious ay of life nt valid according to you?

And why do you assume that a modern orthodox person is not living their life based on torah?

So many generalizations and so many non truths. So so so sad.

1. I don't think their rabbanim are valid, they are not recognized by the gedolei hador to be rabbanim and gedolim. One who follows such rabbanim, aren't recognized by the chareidi gedolim either.

2. I never said they weren't. I think most MO people are, especially in Israel, I see so many inspiring and amazing DL Jews here who are definitely living their life according to the Torah, at least in their perception, and I really respect that, and although I don't agree with their derech, we must all love each other, get along, and learn from each other, and we can still be friends! Smile

3. There are yeshivish people also not living their life according to the Torah, rather living a Torah lifestyle.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 8:13 am

etky wrote:

https://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/254/Q2/

"Frum is a Yiddish word. It originally meant "pious." In Europe, when all Jews were Torah-observant, "frum" meant one who was exceptionally religious and righteous.

Today, when so many Jews are not Torah-observant, "frum" has come to mean anyone who believes in the Torah and is observant of its laws."

Not sure there is one definitive answer but I think that Ohr Sameach is at least as legitimate a source as Wikipedia...
This was always the definition of frum that I grew up with btw -nothing to do with chumras or being particularly pious.

I agree. Frum is anyone religious, and frei is anyone not religious.

Mommyg8

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 10:09 am

SuperWify wrote:

True but from the MO on a whole I learned what real bein adom lachaveiro is.

I am so confused with this sentence. I know people on every part of the frum spectrum, and I cannot say that any one group has a monopoly on "bein adam lachaveiro". Individual people (and families) differ in their level of observance of this mitzvah, I haven't noticed a difference specifically according to which group of Orthodoxy they identify with.

The only thing I can think of is that I have been attacked by women (and men, occasionally over the years) from other sectors of Orthodoxy (whether MO, chassidish, Lubavitch, etc) for my beliefs. I have been told that we, the Yeshivish community, are liars and stealers, we are not makpid on kashrus (that from the Chassidish community), we don't emphasize hashkafa (from the Lubavitch community) and who knows what else. None of these things are true to my knowledge. I haven't felt this huge outpouring of havas yisroel during those times, but it could be that I'm just sensitive...

imasoftov

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 10:32 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Are you MO? Do you not identify as frum? Where do you live? Why ever would you not?

I am so confused, in my lexicon - frum means observant, are MO people not observant?

Edit - if you don't identify as frum why are you on this site?

Am I MO? I don't think there is any other possible interpretation of the post where I referred to "us".

Where do I live? A mixed neighborhood of Jerusalem.

Why ever would I not? Because to me it is not identical with "observant". Why isn't it? Perhaps it's just that I didn't grow up hearing the word, or maybe when applied to MO it sounds to me to refer to a more cautious approach to modernity than mine, for example I heard a speaker recently who was open to ideas from outside his dalet amot, but to let them inside he needed to find they were, if not already Jewish, at least zera Yisrael, this psychological idea also appears in kabbalah, this eastern idea must be one that Avraham's other sons brought there. I haven't taken a survey of people in my community to hear what they think about the word, and I'm not going to do that now in case one of them is also here, but if they are they're probably lurking.

Note that I am not asking you to accept my definition or to to call yourself frum. I wouldn't even do that if I found you on the chair next to me in shul, not that I'm asking what sort of shul you go to or making any assumptions about that.

Why am I on this site? Because the rules say "Jewish Orthodox" rather than frum.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 10:37 am

LovesHashem wrote:

3. There are yeshivish people also not living their life according to the Torah, rather living a Torah lifestyle.

1. The gedolim that you are talking about are ONLY in the charedi world. And Ill go one step further and say that the gedolei hador that you talk about is also ONLY in the charedi world. I dont hold by your gedolei hador. I BH have my own wonderful rabbanim that are 100% valid.
There is no such thing as a universal gedolei hador anymore.
What makes MO or dati leumi (im assuming this) rabbanim not valid? You still havent said.

2. But how are you friends with anyone MO if you are invalidating their entire life? (said scratching my head)

3. what please tell, is the difference?

chanchy123

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 10:41 am

imasoftov wrote:

There must be a language barrier here. Would you consider yourself dati? Dati is synonymous with frum. An Orthodox Jew as far as I understand it would alwaya be considered frum and perhaps some very observant Conservative Jews, but that writhed be open to debate.
I thought the site was for "frum" Jewish women didn't realize it's listed as "Orthodox" any I've always thought of it to mean the same thing.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 10:44 am

LovesHashem wrote:

3. There are yeshivish people also not living their life according to the Torah, rather living a Torah lifestyle.

Modern orthodox rabbanim are valid.
Open orthodox rabbanim are not valid.

Mommyg8

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 10:51 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Maybe there are gaps in my knowledge, but I don't understand that what you are saying is true. For example, I think that the Satmar Rebbe, Rabbeinie Yoel, was a gadol, even though I don't follow his derech. I think that Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik was a tremendous talmid chacham. I think that Rabbi Kook (did I get the name right? I don't remember things anymore) was a tremendous talmid chacham. I think that Rabbi Ovadya Yoseif was a gadol, even if I don't follow his derech.

So I'm extremely upset to hear that you don't give us the same courtesy we give you.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 10:54 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

What??????????? the poster who wrote that the MO rabbanim are not valid said that. I said that I dont consider charedi rabbanim gedolei yisrael, not that they arent rabbanim, but not my gedolim. Sorry if that came out differently. I didnt mean that they werent calid rabbanim, but just that I personally dont consider them gedolei yisrael, they are gedolei charedi or chassidish yisrael. But valid? 100%. It was another poster who said my rabbanim were not valid.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 11:00 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Mommyg8 isn’t saying that you don’t consider them valid.

It sounds like you don’t consider them gedolim. And that’s wrong. They may not be the gadil that you personally follow, but they are still a gadol. To use mommyg8s example: I don’t follow the Samar rebbe, but I still consider him a gadol.

imasoftov

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 11:01 am

chanchy123 wrote:

I prefer shomeret mitzvot because dati is too linked in my mind with whatever the Mafdal calls itself this election (even if the individual under discussion votes for someone else). While any of the terms we've discussed could overlap in any given person, none of them necessarily do.

BadTichelDay

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 11:28 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I don't think MO/Mizrachi/Dati Leumi rabbanim interpret the Torah and halacha as it should be done, so in my mind I disagree with those groups on many things, and don't think their path is valid.

I don't want to derail this thread further but I'm just curious. What's the big difference between MO/Mizrachi/Dati Leumi interpretation of halacha and the chareidi interpretation?
I'm DL and I never thought we are that much different from other frum sectors.
(We dress more colorfully - but that can't be the real issue, can it?)

The main differences I can think of are that our rabbanim place a lot of emphasis on EY and most support army service.
A minority of our rabbanim encourages aliyot to Har Habayit, but that's a minority within DL, there are also many who oppose it.
Both of these seem to reflect differences in hashkafa rather than in halacha.

In actual day to day halacha, I'm not sure there are that many differences.
Chumrot are chumrot and by definition not halacha.

What is it that disqualifies our rabbanim in your view? What makes our path invalid? What do we not keep but should?

If you don't think the answer belongs here, I 'd also gladly receive a pm.

Mommyg8

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 11:28 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

The statements I had issue were "I don't hold by your gedolei hador" and "There is no such thing as a universal gedolei hador anymore". When you say you don't hold by someone, do you mean that you don't consider them valid gedolim? Or that you don't follow their derech? Because I consider the Satmar Rebbe a valid godol, and I "hold" by him, I just don't follow his derech. So if this is not what you meant, can you explain yourself better?

SixOfWands

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 11:29 am

etky wrote:

There are very real and important differences between Orthodox and Conservative Judaism that go beyond swordfish and cheese.*

Hidden:

The Conservative movement uses different criteria to determine halacha. So its not just that they come to a different conclusion -- or even that they come to the same conclusion. Its that they do so in a manner that Orthodoxy does not accept. Halacha is determined by a Central Committee, which may allow for different paths in different synagogues. Also, because Conservative Judaism does not believe that the Oral Torah was given on Sinai, they believe that it is more subject to change than do Orthodox Jews. Rabbi Schorsch, the former leader of the Conservative movement, said, that Conservative Judaism is tied to "sensing divinity both in the Torah and in the Oral Law," but not in a literalist manner.

Its insulting to both MO Jews and to Conservative Jews to conflate them.

amother

Mauve

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 11:50 am

I think it's time for Moshiach's hat again...

(A Poem To Ponder)
By Anonymous ben Kolonymous (who else?)

'T was the night of the Geulah, -- And in every single Shtiebel
Sounds of Torah could be heard -- Coming from every kind of Yeedel.
This one in English, -- Some in Hebrew, some in Yiddish.
Some saying P'shat -- And some saying a Chiddish.
And up in Shamayim--The Aibishter decreed:
"The time has come -- For My children to be freed.
"Rouse the Moshiach -- From his heavenly berth.
Have him get in his chariot, -- And head down to earth.
"The Moshiach got dressed -- And with a heart full of glee,
Went down to earth and entered -- the first Shtiebel he did see.
"I am the Moshiach! -- Hashem has heard your plea!
Your Geulah has come! -- It's time to go free!
"They all stopped their learning; -- This was quite a surprise.
And they look at him carefully, -- With piercing sharp eyes
"He's not the Moshiach!" -- Said one with a grin,
"Just look at his hat, -- At the pinches and brim!"
"That's right!" cried another -- With a grimace and frown,
"Whoever heard of Moshiach, -- With a brim that's turned down?"
"Well," thought Moshiach, -- "If this is the rule,
I'll turn my brim up -- Before I go to the next shul."
So he walked right on over -- To the next shul in town.
Sure to be accepted, -- Since his brim was no longer down.
"I'm, the Moshiach!" he cried, -- As he began to enter
But the Jews wanted to know first -- If he was Left Right or Center
"Your clothes are so black!" -- They cried out in fright.
"You can't be Moshiach--You're much too far right!"
"If you want to be Moshiach, -- You must be properly outfitted.
"So they replaced his black hat -- With a Kippah that was knitted.
Wearing his new Kippah, -- Moshiach went out and said:
"No difference to me -- What I wear on my head.
"So he went to the next shul, -- For his mission was dear.
But he was getting frustrated -- With the Yidden down hear.
"I'm the Moshiach!" he cried, -- And they all stopped to stare,
And a complete eerie stillness -- Filled up the air.
"You're the Moshiach?! -- Just imagine that!
Whoever heard of Moshiach -- Without a black hat?"
"But I do have a hat!" -- The Moshiach then said.
So he pulled it right out -- And plunked it down on his head.
Then the shul started laughing, -- And one said " Where's your kop?
You can't have Moshiach -- With a brim that's turned up!
If you want to be Moshiach -- And be accepted in this town,
"Put some pinches in your hat -- And turn that brim down!"
Moshiach walked out and said: -- "I guess my time hasn't come.
I'll just return -- To where I came from.
"So he went to his chariot, -- But as he began to enter,
All sorts of Jews appeared -- From the Left, Right, and Center.
"Please wait - do not leave. -- It's all their fault!" they said,
And they pointed to each other -- And to what was on each other's head.
Moshiach just looked sad -- And said, " You don't understand."
And then started up his chariot -- To get out of this land.
"Yes, it's very wonderful -- That you all learn Torah,
But you seem to have forgotten -- A crucial part of our Mesorah.
"What does he mean?" -- "What's he talking about?"
And they all looked bewildered, -- And they all began to shout.
Moshiach looked back and answered, -- "The first place to start,
Is to shut up your mouths -- And open your hearts.
"To each of you, certain Yidden -- Seem too Frum or too Frei,
But all Yidden are beloved -- in the Aibishter's eye."
And on his way up he shouted: -- " If you want me to come,
Try working a little harder -- On some Ahavat Chinam!"

Source: all over the internet, copyright unknown