Emunah Help Please

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 12:49 pm

I had my little cousin over at my house a while ago and she questioned "What happened before Hashem made the world? Who made Hashem?"

This had me thinking... A big source of my belief is that if we see something it has to have had a creator. Like the famous parable if we see a beautiful painting we know there's an artist behind it. It didn't just emerge from thin air. So how does this apply to Hashem? What "made" him? Following the previous logic, there'S something that must have proceeded Hashem..?

Please, please don't get this thread locked.
I am looking for answers, I want to grow. This is something that has bothered me for some time. I am sincerely asking this question, and am open to hearing different opinions and answers.

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 1:50 pm

Seeing as we are human beings, we filter our interpretation of the world through our limited understanding. As such, we assume that something that exists must have been created because that is our perception of the way the world works.

If you read the moshol of the blind men and the elephant (google it) you will see that our limited understanding can easily lead us to mistaken conclusions.

Hashem existed before the world. Does that mean He was created? Not necessarily. Do we understand how something can exist that was not created? No. Do we understand how Hashem spoke and things appeared? No. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Do you know how a robot works? I definitely don't! Does that mean that it doesn't work? No. Just that I am incapable of understanding it.

Human understanding is extremely limited. We just have to be humble enough to admit it.

leah233

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:14 pm

In the PHYSICAL world we live in nothing exists without a creator or comes out of thin air. In the physical world everything works with time, before and after.

In the spiritual world of Hashem these things aren't necessarily true.

Hashem is inherently beyond our comprehension. If we think about his existence and essence in the context of our physical world we are almost certain to run into difficulties. That would be like fitting a square peg into a round hole.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:28 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for answering.

So that means in short the answer is that our understanding is limited and we simply cannot understand, but we need to believe that there was nothing before Hashem?

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:30 pm

leah233 wrote:

Thanks for your response.

So similar to the previous poster- you're saying it's beyond our understanding, and even if we try we can never understand?

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:38 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for your response.

So similar to the previous poster- you're saying it's beyond our understanding, and even if we try we can never understand?

It's not beyond our understanding. Hashem is beyond our understanding. He is the Creator , not a creation.

It's perfectly understandable that our Creator should be beyond our understanding. If we would understand Him, I think that would be a problem.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:42 pm

amother wrote:

I hear that. That's true, I like that point. I'll think about it.

Somehow I just wish there was something more satisfying, but maybe that's just something I need to work on.. though I don't know how.

leah233

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:46 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for your response.

So similar to the previous poster- you're saying it's beyond our understanding, and even if we try we can never understand?

I don't know about never. Maybe when I'll be older I will...

But to put it this way .The estimates of the number of galaxies are about one hundred billion.
(The way they estimate that number is not by observation.)

That should just give an idea of how beyond our comprehension the world Hashem created is. Imagine how beyond comprehension he himself must be.

We can understand Hashem more and better, but to truly know him, truly understand his essense does not seem like somethinga human is capable of.

amother

Black

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:52 pm

amother wrote:

We don't have to understand everything.

While you are right, I've found an interesting concept after being on this site a number of years. Sometimes in Judaism something seemingly doesn't seem right or make sense to us humans. Some people are totally fine with what you just said and simply say "We don't have to understand". They are completely at peace with this response. Others feel like things should be logical and make sense. If it doesn't make logical sense it leaves them with an empty feeling. So op, unfortunately there isn't a logical explanation that anyone can give you that will truly answer your question. The best we can say is "we don't understand". I understand why that might not suffice, but that really is all there is to say.

leah233

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 2:59 pm

amother wrote:

Because you not smart enough to understand something doesn't mean it isn't logical.

As the centuries old saying goes " I believe in Hashem. He is not the god the atheist doesn't believe in"

amother

Black

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 3:35 pm

leah233 wrote:

Because you not smart enough to understand something doesn't mean it isn't logical.

As the centuries old saying goes " I believe in Hashem. He is not the god the atheist doesn't believe in"

If something can't be understood by humans, then it is fair to say that it is not logical or understandable from a human perspective. If I say hashem is full of compassion, and every single thing that happens to us is an act of compassion by hashem. This includes families perishing in house fires, children missing limbs and starving to death. And the holocaust. Does the statement that hashem is fully compassionate make logical sense to you? For me, I have to accept that we don't understand the mysterious ways of hashem. I believe the statement is true even though to my limited mind it seems illogical and doesn't make sense.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:21 pm

I would tell a bright child that we can't understand this and that I wouldn't want a G-d who I could totally know everything about in this world. But (and you may or may not choose to say this) there are many reasons that I believe that Hashem does exist and knows everything and takes care of everything every minute, reasons that are reasonable to believe.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:29 pm

amother wrote:

It's true, I agree. Thanks for validating that.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:30 pm

leah233 wrote:

Because you not smart enough to understand something doesn't mean it isn't logical.

As the centuries old saying goes " I believe in Hashem. He is not the god the atheist doesn't believe in"

I like that saying..

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:32 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

The child was just a springboard for me thinking about it.. Now it's me with the question Confused

And about the bolded, I truly do believe in Hashem. My question is focused on this particular aspect of what was "before" Hashem.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:33 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with every word. Thanks for explaining it so well.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:35 pm

amother wrote:

The child was just a springboard for me thinking about it.. Now it's me with the question Confused

And about the bolded, I truly do believe in Hashem. My question is focused on this particular aspect of what was "before" Hashem.

If you got ohr.edu and listen to some of the lectures given on the May Ohr Samayach tour, Rabbi Tatz and Rabbi Gottlieb spoke about how we can't base our belief on proof, but reasonable premises.

kneidel

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:58 pm

In this world you're not going to find definite proof; it's what bechira is about. And it's why we say ‘ani maamin'... and not ‘ani yodea’.

And yet of all the miracles in the world I've always thought the biggest miracle is that man can deny that there is a Creator.

HaShem’s existence is practically tangible. I see it in the smile of a newborn, in the petals of a rose, in the formation of a snowflake… it's reflected in the presence of our gedolei hador… I perceive it in a posuk of chumash, in a good vort… and I feel Him holding my hand every step of the way…

To know that we are limited in our understanding of G-d and to humbly accept this, does not make as unthinking / ignorant / unintellectual. On the contrary it invites us into the ranks of the great thinkers and geniuses the likes of the Rambam, the Ramchal, Rabbeinu Bachya etc. And it also makes the life we lead the most satisfying, exhilarating, humbling, joyous experience.

Last edited by kneidel on Fri, Jul 06 2018, 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total

Seas

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 5:10 pm

OP,

Chazal tell us that there are some questions we are forbidden to delve into. Amongst them are מה לפנים מה לאחור - what was before the world was created and what will be after it's destroyed.

This issur is no different than say not thinking lewd thoughts or not eating unshechted beef. Hashem has dictated what we are allowed to eat, see, wear and also think.