What not to do at a shiva call

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amother

Ruby

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 8:47 pm

amother wrote:

On the same vein (but maybe even worse), when I was sitting shiva for my husband, one of my younger DD's teacher's came and told her that when a girl loses a parent abnormally young as she had, she needs to ask herself how she might have improved her tznius. My older DD is the kind of girl who would have known that teacher was an idiot, but younger DD is a very sincere little girl (whose tznius is just fine, btw). She always took life very seriously, and this really bothered her. I have never forgiven that teacher.

I can't even. I lost my parent when I was 8 and till today I feel like it's somewhat my fault that he died. In my school the whole school lined up everyday and said tehillim together. The school was saying tehillim for my parent and about a week before my parent was niftar they stopped saying tehillim for my parent. I have no idea why and I was a little kid and I didn't have the courage to tell anyone we still needed to say tehillim. I never shared this with anyone before right now, and even though I know it's not rational I still feel a little guilty.

Please, please make sure your dd knows the teacher is an idiot and she is 100% not to blame. No kid should have to go through life thinking they are to blame because their parent died.

Cheiny

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 9:05 pm

amother wrote:

Can I add?

Only come if you have a relationship with the mourner.
.

I disagree totally with this. There are many instances where people who were touched by the niftar or helped by them, or feel some other connection with them, give much comfort to the aveilim.

Cheiny

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 9:10 pm

smileforamile wrote:

No words. How could people be so heartless?

At shiva for my mother, some neighbors came at the same time, and it turned into a social event, people joking and talking about movies, etc. One man walked in, talking loudly on his cell phone. I felt it was horribly disrespectful to the neshama. After that, I had my dh put up a sign on the wall behind me asking that people kindly refrain from speaking about anything other than the nifteres.

cookiewriter

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 9:29 pm

Don’t come in if there is a break during the day! (Like if sign outside says 10-3, 4-11, don’t come between 3-4.

Don’t ask if the person suffered

Fox

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 9:52 pm

Mark Twain wrote that, “It takes your enemy and your friend, working together, to hurt you to the heart: the one to slander you and the other to get the news to you.”

Don't be the "friend" who eagerly informs the avelim of any tactless remarks you overheard that they may have missed.

Laiya

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 10:05 pm

amother wrote:

Can I ask what is so wrong with asking how old the niftar was?
Signed, someone who sat shiva for a 58 year old and a 32 year old.

I think if the niftar wasn't young, there may be an implication felt in the question that the death wasn't really *that* tragic. That's not what the avel wants to hear just then.

amother

Oak

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 10:18 pm

If you knew the niftar for a while, and you have nothing nice to say about him or her, it's absolutely better that you not go or call, than to say nothing. The silence speaks painful volumes.

amother

Blue

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 10:35 pm

smileforamile wrote:

I always wonder about this. I went to be menachem avel my high school classmate (whom I had been friends with years before but didn't really have a relationship with at that point) when she lost her mother, and I got the feeling that she really didn't appreciate having her classmates and teachers there. On the other hand, some people would feel good that their classmates and teachers thought about them. My sister's friend lost her father when she was in high school, and she appreciated the people from school who came.

Also, I remember when my father was sitting shiva for his sister, he was very uncomfortable when members of his shul showed up. He almost deliberately told these more yeshivish people that his sister had started a yishuv on the West Bank and carried a semi-automatic rifle to defend the shul on Shabbos.

My MIL did not even want to tell the shul members that her brother had passed away, since she didn't want anyone outside the family to come.

That's why I never know whether or not to go be menachem avel someone whom I'm not close with.

It's not always a clear-cut decision, sometimes you just have to use your best judgment.
I've also gone to be menachem avel an old classmate who I was never friends with, I wasn't even sure if she recognized me because she didn't acknowledge my presence, I just sat quietly and left after a few minutes.
I ask myself before making a shiva call: would this particular avel notice if I didn't show up?
If the answer is yes, I go.
I've heard that some people have a rule you should only pay a shiva call to someone if you are close enough to attend their simchas.

amother

Linen

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 10:37 pm

Delete

Last edited by amother on Tue, Feb 12 2019, 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Babypink

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 10:58 pm

amother wrote:

I have told her. But as you know, pain and guilt like that is not rational, especially for a little girl.

Thank you for caring, though.

amother

Pewter

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 11:06 pm

Comment from outsiders coming to be 'menachem':
*I totally understand how you feel!! (he never sat Shiva before)ouch
*to a mother who lost her young son: at least now you have someone up there to pray on your behalf!! Ouch ouch
*lost young girl in shidduchim: I tried reading her a shidduch but she wasn't interested. Ouch ouch ouch

amother

Rose

Mon, Jan 07 2019, 11:59 pm

amother wrote:

It's about the aveilim, not about you. Do what's right for them..

Misaskim should post this outside every Shiva house

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 12:17 am

Just when I think I’ve heard it all....

My DH lost his first wife when she was 40 and he has told me some seriously awful stories about the shiva.
Someone spent the whole visit telling him how he must remarry right away. This was in front of his young children who were sitting shiva for their mother!

My stepson was 8 at the shiva. Someone told him now he will be sad for the rest of his life.

I really wish people had to go through a screening process to pay a shiva visit.

amother

Tangerine

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 2:08 am

When I was sitting shiva for my father, at age 17-18, my first classmate got engaged. Every classmate that came thru the door, was jumping from excitement, thru the roof & sharing the news! I heard it 40 times! What was I supposed to do? Dance with them?

Iymnok

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 2:11 am

The Halacha is that youcome in and don’t say anything until the Avel does. Then follow her lead.

Sitting quietly for a couple minutes then saying "hamakom" can be very comforting.

grace413

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 3:16 am

What is wrong with people??????

heidi

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 3:40 am

I know several couples who have unfortunately lost children. From what I understand they found it comforting to hear from people who have also lost children. My relative told me that she had no idea that a certain very put together always smiling pillar of the community had lost a baby exactly the same age as my relative's. It gave her a lot of nechama and chizzuk to see that people were able to somehow move on and continue living positive lives.

etky

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 4:18 am

heidi wrote:

It's also customary for relatives of terror victims to attend shiva's of other terror victims that they never even met to give chizuk to the families.

momofqts

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 6:11 am

Im speechless!!! I'm sorry for all the hurt and pain you all went through at such a vulnerable time when you needed comfort and not stupidity!

watergirl

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 8:11 am

I have a whole list. But for now I’ll just say a few:

Honor the visiting hours. Find out before what they are.

Dont ask for a tour of the house.

Dont bring small kids and if you must, clean up the mess they make.

Dont ask why they died.

Dont assume anything about the avel.

If the avel sells a particular product that you need, dont use this as an opportunity to buy it (happened to me!).

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