What not to do at a shiva call

amother

Blue

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 8:19 am

heidi wrote:

I know several couples who have unfortunately lost children. From what I understand they found it comforting to hear from people who have also lost children. My relative told me that she had no idea that a certain very put together always smiling pillar of the community had lost a baby exactly the same age as my relative's. It gave her a lot of nechama and chizzuk to see that people were able to somehow move on and continue living positive lives.

This is very individual, not everyone would appreciate it.

Simple1

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 8:33 am

amother wrote:

If you knew the niftar for a while, and you have nothing nice to say about him or her, it's absolutely better that you not go or call, than to say nothing. The silence speaks painful volumes.

I don't understand this. I thought the rule of thumb was that it's better not to talk (unless prompted). The not talking rule would actually have avoided all of the crazy things said on this thread.

Some of it is really crazy, but others are probably well-meaning people with foot-in-the-mouth during a very sensitive time.

acemom

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:25 am

How about:

-Don't use the shiva call as an opportunity to "meet the family".... A cousin from oot was practically sitting around for hours shmoozing with the non-sitting family because " We never get to connect. So nice meeting up with the extended family. ..."

-The other family members are not entertainers or babysitters. Leave young kids home! !

-The food is for the mourners and family.... Don't help yourself without asking first...

-Shiva call is not the time to explore and analyze the house, nor comment about it.

-Know when to leave! Someone stayed shmoozing well after 1 am! Most of the mourners already went to bed but this person didn't get the message...

Iymnok

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:37 am

acemom wrote:

There is a Sefardi minhag to put out food so that people can make a brocha l'iluy nishmaso.
It could be that those who are used to this assume that all do this.

amother

Oak

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:37 am

Simple1 wrote:

I think it's always nice to share a positive memory or thought about the niftar.

But if you actually did not like the niftar, either fake it and share something nice, or don't go or call at all.

Someone who knew my relative for many years, but had a very difficult relationship with, called me. She tried to say some half-empathetic things about shiva being hard, but said not a word about my relative. I kept waiting. She could not come up with a single positive thing to say.

She called so she could pat herself on the back for doing the "right thing". Her silence during a very vulnerable time, caused me deep pain.

farm

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:41 am

This topic came up somewhat recently in Mishpacha magazine. Someone wrote such a beautiful letter explaining how we are all one family and are personally hurt by the pain of others
which causes many to be extremely uncomfortable and blurt out ridiculous, uncomfortable and hurtful comments at shiva visits. And cross the street when you see the Abel approaching afterwards and you just don't know what to say.
But we are also full of joy when our "family" makes a simcha and find it so much easier to share at those times in a more natural and less awkward or tongue tied way. That's why people get trays and trays of cakes, cookies, fruit, candy from the whole neighborhood when they make a shalom zachar, bar mitzva, vort, etc.
It's all coming from the same place- love and brotherhood.

amother

Blush

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:46 am

thunderstorm wrote:

I have a problem that I rarely could control. When I go to be menachem avel , I usually start crying and I sit there with my tissues. I feel so stupid each time. I go to bring comfort and instead I'm the one crying over the loss while the aveilim are not. Should I rather not go?

This! I really struggle with this mitzva. I become very emotional and have an extremely hard time getting out the words of 'hamakom yinachem' without becoming tearful or straight out crying. I am emotional just thinking about this as I type Pale

amother

Oak

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:52 am

amother wrote:

Kol hakavod to you and Thunderstorm, you sound like very empathetic, caring people.

Maybe it would help if you can try to focus your inner thoughts on other grounding things, in that moment. How many folding chairs are out, the color of the paint, if all walls are the same color, arrangement of the furniture.

Simple1

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:52 am

amother wrote:

I'm sorry you had to go thru that.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:56 am

Speaking as someone who lost several close family members (starting with my husband and parents) in a very short time, I have a controversial suggestion. There needs to be shiva, because Hashem said so. But not EVERYONE needs to come in those seven days. I would have appreciated a call the following week or weeks, probably more. My kids could have used the treat of having a pizza delivered a few weeks later. In my experience there are way too many people during shiva and then we are supposed to go back to life.

I guess what I am saying is, if you are one of the people above who isn't good at shiva, don't feel badly. Embrace that and stay home. Please. The avelim will need you just as much next week.

Laiya

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 9:59 am

Ruchel wrote:

The small talk would hurt my mother to the core. Don't be that person.

Follow cues. My husband did not want sob stories.

Just to put it out there, I very much appreciated the small talk. I found sitting quietly, with people sitting quietly staring at me, to be extremely stressful. I much preferred small talk (and very short visits). I do agree about following cues.

essie14

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 10:02 am

Every situation is so different. The last shiva I went to was for my friend's husband who was 40 years old. She did not appreciate small talk; it was very tragic.
On the other hand, when my 88 year old grandfather passed away it wasn't tragic and there were many hours where small talk was fine. We loved the family reunion aspect.
It was a celebration of his life. My grandmother and the children were not overcome with grief as when a younger person passes away.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 10:03 am

I cant count how many people tried to comfort my sibling by telling her that her child is in a better place now and she should be happy for him!! Someone even said "I dont feel sad and bad for the child that nebach passed away, I only feel bad for you as a mother!" And "dont You feel relieved that his pain is finally over???"
We should never know the pain a burying a child, saying that the child is in a better place and not in pain anymore does not take away an iota of the pain.

Chayalle

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 10:23 am

Maybe we should have a spin-off about what we did appreciate while sitting Shiva.

Everyone is different. When we sat Shiva for our mother, a relative of my mother's whom we sisters did not know well, but had grown up with my mother, came to see us. She told us alot about my mother as a child, some of it really funny....and we really appreciated that she took the time to do this, and share her memories.

Others might not have appreciated it, but for us, when we talk about the Shiva, she comes high on the list of those who comforted us.

acemom

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 11:08 am

Iymnok wrote:

There is a Sefardi minhag to put out food so that people can make a brocha l'iluy nishmaso.
It could be that those who are used to this assume that all do this.

To clarify, it usually is obvious when food is put out for the public. It usually includes a sign with the name to say a brochos "l'iluy nishmaso".
People coming to visit should use common sense.... Don't wander around in the kitchen or food prep area and help yourself to food.

To add:
Shiva house is not a public lunchroom either. Bringing your own lunch and using the microwave to heat up (smelly food no less) isn't very appropriate.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 11:30 am

I've been thinking about this. And just wanted to add that in my experience of sitting shiva, mostly people were so incredibly kind and caring. Some shared their own experiences and suggestions of how to remember the niftar. Even if it didn't apply or appeal to me, I appreciated that they wanted to share what worked for them in the hopes that it may comfort me. Many came even if they weren't close, and because I know how uncomfortable shiva visits can be, I appreciated so much that they took time out of their day to show they cared. There were some who made stupid comments (former boss where I quit working who sat in front of ME but proceeded to tell me she ONLY came for my brother after I thanked her for coming.) or those who sat FOREVER late into the night gossiping about people we knew in common, but honestly they were the minority.

There was a woman who was crying and I was at a numb stage and felt so stupid at the time because it seemed she felt worse than me. But really, I'm sure she didn't judge and now looking back I am glad she sat and cried because it showed she was touched by my loss.

Mostly I really believe we are a nation of compassionate people. Even if you messed up, or others messed up, its not intentional. We all do stupid things sometimes. While its not the easiest week and, as an introvert, it sometimes felt "much", overall the memories and impressions kindness and good will far exceed the bad.