How much do you really believe this?

MitzadSheini

Tue, Mar 05 2019, 7:01 pm

I believe it. But you have to keep.working at it to believe it more and more.

When I make a good effort at something don't see results , I try to tell myself the effort still counts, the results may come later from another source. When I put in a small amount of effort and see big results,I say wow Hashem made that one easy for me.

One of the weird things I believe at the moment is that writing and speaking words is an important part of hishtadlus required for this generation. I believe that this is something to do with Hashem creating the world through the looking at the Torah and saying the "vayomers". So example it is impossible to machanech a child, or build a house, or do.anything really without lots of telephone calls, emails and texts and so on. This used to upset me- when can we get to the tachliss and do something that will actually help? Now every time (well.at least most times!) I have to write something I get excited - great some histadlus I can do easily. I hope this will somehow help. But the help.ia illogical and unscientific because Hashem is orchestrating it. Like you start writing down something about a problem and then almost like magic the problem disappears.

It's just that the required hishtadlus has changed from something very physical (eg compare walking to using a car and all other modern conveniences) to something more spiritual ie using words.

But it is a.lifetime of struggle and I am.not there yet.

chicco

Tue, Mar 05 2019, 7:47 pm

amother wrote:

So your saying if someone doesn’t make hishtadluls in a certain area
H-Shem won’t make it happen? Not true.

I dont understand how you made that leap.

This is how I understand hishtadlus. Hashem doesn't change. He is constantly raining bracha down on us. What allows us to get that bracha sometimes and not others is the effort we make that makes us more receptive to that which Hashem is already sending our way. Imagine you are a house and you open the door so that Hashem's bracha can enter. It will, but only that bracha that is coming from that direction. If you open a window on the other side of the house, you are now allowing that bracha inside of you as well. The more openings you have, the more bracha you can receive. Our hishtadlus is any action or thoughts that open more "windows" of our "house." For everybody those actions/thoughts are specific to their personal relationship with Hashem.

shoshanim999

Tue, Mar 05 2019, 7:55 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Your outlook is quite wrong. Hishtadlus has absolutely no effect on the outcome. None. I heard in a shiur by Rabbi Ezriel Tauber, that for example in the area of shidduchim, a single can sit in the house twiddling their thumbs, and they will not get married any later than if he ran after every shadchan in the world. It’s a hard concept to understand, accept and live, but very true. We have zero power over anything.

That’s not the reason we have to do hishtadlus. Hash-m could read our minds and know we are serious about something we want and that we want to help ourselves; He doesnt need us to do Hishtadlus to show Him that. We do it because that’s what The Torah says we must do, but it has no effect on the outcome at all. It’s a big test to see if we believe our effort is what makes something happen or if we know we have no power, only Hashem does.

Since when does being a frum woman mean that we can't use our seichel? Hashem created the world in a way that in every single way imaginable hishtadlus increases the likelihood of a successful result. I don't think you will find a single instance where over a large sample, hishtadlus doesn't matter. To suggest that people can sit home and "twiddle their thumbs" and achieve the same measure of success is a frighting and cult-like claim.

When Rabbi Ezriel Tauber or any other Rosh Yeshiva from Eretz Yisroel or Lakewwod need to collect money do you know what they do? They pick themselves up, leave their yeshivos and talmidim for weeks at a time, and fly to areas that are known to have money. According to you, they could just twiddle their thumbs or at least collect locally. Yeah, the Lakewood Roshei yeshiva would go around Westgate (Lakewood) in an attempt to collect large sums of money by knocking on.....kollel doors. Why don't they do that instead of shleping to NY, Chicago, Los Angeles and Toronto? The answer is because if they need to raise 100,000 they know they better leave Lakewood. Hashem won't make open miracles and have kollel families write out $5000 checks.
Same is true for every concept or idea you can think of. Twiddling thumbs doesn't work. If a couple in NY is struggling with infertility and are told that the best doctor in the world is in Los Angeles.....they shlep to Los Angeles. They don't say hashem can make the local doctor matsliach. The rambam says that we shouldn't be fools and we shouldn't believe things that directly contradict our senses. Please, let's use a little common sense.

gande

Tue, Mar 05 2019, 9:39 pm

I know someone who had emuna. He bought $100 worth of cake for shabbos. Cause hashem will pay back. He had no daga of parnassa, working for himself part time taking vaccinations whenever felt like, no business plan. Guess what he found himself maxed out on all ccs.

I know someone else, who buys what he needs but in school and middle class so fell in to some debt. He was adamant not to be in debt and prayed to hashem to help him. He took side jobs. Wife got creative and saw much hatzlacha in her small business which payed off the debt plus.
Its all in the attitude.

seeker

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 1:11 am

I wish I could remember the source of this maamar, I wrote it down when I learned it in school ages ago as it rang very true, but I neglected to write the source.

.לא שהשתדלות המועיל אלא מוכרך, וכיון שהשתדל יצא לידי חובתו וכבר יש מקום לברכת שמים שתשרה עליו....
Loose translation: Hishtadlus is not the cause, but it is required; when a person does hishtadlus then he has fulfilled his obligation and there is now room for the bracha to come from Heaven.

I've heard the same idea referenced to Rav Avigdor Miller - he says that hishtadlus is a mitzvah. Hashem wants people to do hishtadlus. The outcome of it is not in our hands but we are required to do it.

shoshanim999

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:43 am

seeker wrote:

Either you are misquoting or dare I say the maamar is incorrect. To what extent do you accept this maamar? If my 5 year old son needs a haircut and I do't take him to the barber (the hishtadlus) will hashem cut his hair? If I have a flat tire do I really need to do the hishtadlus and change it? Can I just rely on hashem to fix it? He certainly can fix it so why not rely on him?

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 8:40 am

gande wrote:

You have to do hishtadlos. Although sometime your yeshua will come from another place. I had that experience few times. Doing hishtadlos is a way of showing Hashem that you are serious about the thing you want and that you really want to help yourself. There is a quote that I always say that "in the way a person wants to go, Hashem takes him.

"In the way a person wants to go Hashem takes him" means the way a person wants to go spiritually is the way Hashem takes him. It doesn't mean that if you want something in life and do your hishtadlus you'll get it, or how do you explain my friend who did everything for her sick dd but she died.

seeker

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 8:52 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

First of all, you're forgetting one "either or" - either I'm misquoting OR you're misunderstanding. It's incredibly presumptuous to imagine that you know better than Rav Miller who is undoubtedly one of the greatest Jewish thinkers and teachers of our time.

Anyway, my quote distinctly said that hishtadlus is required, however it is not the cause of the outcome. So no, you may not just rely on Hashem without contributing your effort. You need to take your kid to the barber. Taking your kid to the barber does not guarantee a haircut. You could get stuck in a crazy traffic situation and miss the barber's hours. The barber could have a power outage and close shop. Your kid could throw an impossible tantrum or get sick and not be able to receive the haircut. He could also give your kid a lousy haircut despite previously demonstrating competence.

shoshanim999

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 8:59 am

chestnut wrote:

Shoshanim, it clearly says that hishtadlus is an obligation.

I agree, a person has to do hishtadlus. It's an obligation.

What I disagree with is the idea that hishtadlus doesn't help achieve the desired result. For example imagine a kollel family with 8 children. The husband supplements his kollel salary by tutoring a few hours a week in the evenings. Finally at 35 years old he decides he can't live this way anymore and decides to go to medical school. Now 15 years later he's earning $500,000 a year as a surgeon.

I believe that the reason his family income went from 50,000 to 500,000 is because he gave up kollel and became a doctor. Others on this thread are saying that once a person is doing their hishtadlus, they have nothing to do with anything that happens after that. So in the example above, even had the man stayed in kollel, hashem would have somehow arranged for him to receive $500,000 a year since he was doing hishtadlus by getting a kollel check and tutoring at night. They would argue that we shouldn't think the reason he is earning a big salary now is because he decided to go to med school.

leah233

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 9:59 am

One major component of the histadlus question is the motive for not making it.

If someone is not making histadlus because that they are on such high level of bitochen that they believe a single can just twiddle her thumbs and Hashem will bring her shidduch to her then maybe it will happen.

If they aren't making effort because they are lazy, irresponsible or just using bitchon as an excuse then it almost certainly won't happen.

Open nissim aren't happening without histadlus either . Nobodies house is getting cleaned or supper is being made without her histadlus

seeker

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 10:46 am

shoshanim999 wrote:

It's the same as the barber equation. Going to med school is hishtadlus. It opens the possibility of a physician salary. However it does not cause 500k income. You can go to med school and... Not succeed there; get in an accident and lose the ability to practice; get sued for malpractice which can destroy your reputation even if false; face new government regulations or market circumstances that slash the income potential... Or you can earn the money and be swamped with expenses you never even heard of before or quality of life issues. Or you can earn the money, enjoy it, believe that it is because of your great choices, and lose your spirituality.

Believing that hishtadlus CAUSES a specific outcome removes G-d from the scene of running the world, which is contrary to basic tenets of our theology. Or at least mine.

shoshanim999

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 11:10 am

seeker wrote:

Your relying on an exception or an outlier and using it as the standard. I wouldn't necessarily say that believing hishtadlus causes a specific outcome removes god. I think it's just the system that god put into the world. He made it so that the more work and effort a person puts into something, the more LIKELY they are to achieve it. It's like I said earlier, that's why the Lakewood rabbanim travel all over the country to raise money. Why don't they keep it simple and do their hishtadlus by knocking on doors in Lakewood? Because hashem created the system to work in a way that in the overwhelming majority of instances, a persons success is determined by being practical about doing the things necessary to succeed.

MitzadSheini

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 2:58 pm

I would add that a person who truly believes this would never compromise on mitzvos for hishtadlus. So they would never say - if I keep working at whatever I am doing instead of going to daven mincha then I will get a better result with what I am doing. They won't eat at the non Jewish boss's wife's non kosher restaurant in the hope that it will encourage the boss to give him a raise. They will not put in a dodgy claim.for benefits to try to get more.money. And so on.

PinkFridge

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 4:08 pm

MitzadSheini wrote:

This is homiletical but meaningful: He'emanti ki adaber. I believe because I speak.

amother

Red

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 6:58 pm

chicco wrote:

No u don’t NEED to open the window . If He wants He will give you whate He wants to, or make something happene even if u didn’t do hishtadlus or open the window,

Cheiny

Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:01 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

That’s just it; when you need it to make sense to you, you’re denying Hashem’s role, complete role, (we have zero effect on any outcome, zero, other than choosing between mitvos and aveiros) in everything. Rabbis who go collect are doing their hishtadlus; it has zero effect on how much they’ll get. On Rosh Hashana Hashem decides how much money each person will get that year, and even if someone isn’t working, Hashem will make him get that same amount through some other way.

Last edited by Cheiny on Wed, Mar 06 2019, 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total