Please help me... I feel like I lost my child

amother

Copper

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 3:18 pm

Zehava wrote:

You don’t wish on anybody to be young?
Yes I do take issue with the word pretend. Maybe because I’ve seen so many families pretending to accept their children and it’s just so painfully obvious how fake it is.
No I never “had” to pretend to accept someone I love. Genuinely accepting my loved ones is my life’s work. Consciously and even subconsciously, I always check myself and ask myself if I am genuinely accepting the person with all of their quirks and flaws, perfectly imperfect.
No it doesn’t come naturally for me. It’s not something I was raised with. I’ll bet it comes easier to some people.

I was being bitter and cynical.

And slightly facetious.

But in all seriousness, I'm not sure we actually disagree on anything here. I think we are all agreeing on the importance of showing and demonstrating our love to people who are close to us by taking them as they are.

Pewter said she "pretends" to accept the differences. You say you "work" on accepting differences. Is that really different? If so, how? And how would one measure that?

Zehava

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 3:28 pm

amother wrote:

Ofcourse it’s different
Pretending is being nice and warm to their face, and inside feeling sorry for yourself for having such a difficult child. And telling your spouse and friends and siblings about the kids latest transgressions. And when that’s not enough sympathy posting about it online.
Working on acceptance is constantly checking yourself, your emotions and even your motivations for doing things.
Am I getting him therapy, putting him on meds, etc. for my own sake, so I’ll have a “normal” kid?
Or do I want to help my child be happy and be the best possible version of themselves, while at the same time loving and accepting them where they’re at?
It’s not easy at all. For me at least. It’s hard work. But it’s the least every child deserves. Love, acceptance, and dignity.

amother

Copper

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 3:42 pm

Zehava wrote:

You are making a lot of assumptions here. Who said anything about pretending to be nice and warm? Who said anything about telling spouses and friends and siblings about transgressions? Where is that even coming from?

I still maintain that we are largely arguing semantics. When my child, who has chosen not to live a frum lifestyle, is unhappy, or discouraged, or feeling low, I mother her wholeheartedly with love and concern and compassion. When she is joyful and upbeat, I share in her achievements and excitement completely.

When she is open about something that alludes to not having kept shabbos or kashrut, I stifle my sadness about this fact of life, and "pretend" that it doesn't affect me. For her sake, because this is her choice, and she will be my beloved child, and I will be her loving mother regardless.

What exactly are we disagreeing about here?

Zehava

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 4:18 pm

amother wrote:

Looks like you’re doing pretty great, kudos to you!
The word pretending conjured up something else for me, like I said.
I know too many families with otd kids, or kids who veered to the left, who think they are being amaaaazing by “accepting” the kid, which pretty much means being all nice and sugary to their face while talking about them behind their backs.

amother

Olive

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 4:52 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I wonder how your "affectionate teasing" for his "awful haircut" sounded from where he stood ...

It went over very well. Thank you asking. He seems to have liked the teasing because he smiles and uses the same teasing name for his haircut that we do. He also is maturing because he now asks for a haircut without us telling him it's time.

I feel sorry for you always looking for the negative in everything. You view the world through a bitter lens. We wouldn't teased him if he was sensitive. I guess you missed the part about open communication.

amother

Pewter

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 4:56 pm

Zehava wrote:

I know too many families with otd kids, or kids who veered to the left, who think they are being amaaaazing by “accepting” the kid, which pretty much means being all nice and sugary to their face while talking about them behind their backs.

Which is pretty much what goes on in Fishoff's parents support group, DAILY, with the blessings of hundreds of Gdolim.

The fact that the hundreds of parents need the support group shows what loving parents they are and how it kills them to see the child choosing a path that were taught from the time were young, doesnt lead to real fulfillment (for the child, forget the parents), and to just love them with all your heart and soul, because theyre "sick" and all or most have been traumatized by frum people, or they wouldnt be making the choices theyre making.

How many times the whole group has laughed and cried in unison, when parents describe their feelings about accompanying their children to buy jeans and have their hair streaked purple, an every day occurrence at the group.

If they didnt have this group to laugh and cry with, theyd easily crack up.

Zehava

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 5:15 pm

amother wrote:

Yeah you said it better than I could. This is exactly what is wrong with the Frum worlds approach to otd kids. Which ofcourse affects how parents treat their kids on an individual basis.
How would you like it if your parent attributed all your choices to being “sick”?
It feels horrible I can tell you that. It feels like you’re invisible, like they will never truly see you or believe you.

Zehava

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 5:27 pm

amother wrote:

But his method works! My family member has a great relationship with their parents. They don’t judge or criticize them ever. They are accepting and encouraging and that is what these children need

All human beings need true acceptance. Not pretense and not as a means to an end.

amother

Pewter

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 5:50 pm

Zehava wrote:

All human beings need true acceptance. Not pretense and not as a means to an end.

If you feel sooo strongly that you have an approach thats better for child and parents, and you would do things "the right way", while theyre doing things the wrong way, why are you wasting a single precious minute?

Dont keep this selfless valuable passion to yourself!

Call about 100+ Gdolei Hador and tell them what they should be telling Fishoff, about what changes he should make (because Im sure they havent discussed this over and over for 10+ years (NOT).

Oh and definitely call Fishoff.

And start counseling parents.

amother

Gray

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 5:55 pm

Zehava, even a parent has to be true to them self. A mother who gets support for herself , instead of burying her feelings inside, will be in a much better position to support her child. If your teen child had "issues" like they sometimes used curse words to you and even had punched you in a fit of anger, (something for which afterwards they felt very guilty, and started medication which didn't help straight away) would you not yourself seek support, a place to vent , a place to feel sad and understood, so that you would be a stronger person more able to support your child?

Zehava

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 6:12 pm

amother wrote:

Well yes ofcourse
But my first concern would be for my child.
I would question myself a lot as a parent. Am I doing enough to help my child with their self-destructive behavior? Am I getting them the right intervention? Am I making this about me or is my focus truly on them?
And if once they manage to get over those self-destructive behaviors and reach emotional health, they decide to lead a different lifestyle than me I would respect that fully and be proud of their success.

amother

Pewter

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 6:32 pm

Zehava wrote:

I am as sure as the sun coming out tomorrow, that every parent sitting at Fishoff's Support group, felt EXACTLY like you do, totally feeling and speaking like you speak now,

until they were faced with the problem themselves.

amother

Pearl

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 6:39 pm

Zehava wrote:

You are speaking as a hurt child, not as a parent hurting from and for her child.

Honestly, you can’t speculate what you would do in a situation like this if you haven’t dealt with it as a parent.

Zehava

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 6:52 pm

amother wrote:

Yeah I’m not quite that sure. It’s definitely not the talk I hear all around me.
And I don’t raise problems. I raise children.

Zehava

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 6:53 pm

amother wrote:

And honestly not knowing anything about me you wouldn’t know what I’m speaking as and what I’m dealing with.
Assumptions assumptions
ETA and if I’m indeed speaking as a hurt child then maybe, just maybe parents should listen. After all do they really want to hurt their child so bad that such a post years down the line should trigger them?

amother

Pearl

Mon, Mar 25 2019, 7:16 pm

Zehava wrote:

You sound so angry... sorry 😐