Is the problem the no-vax or the no responsibility?

notshanarishona

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:10 pm

Even if you home school your kids , It is impossible for you to know every illness they are exposed too. It is very possible for them to catch a vaccine preventable illness and for you not to know they were exposed and meanwhile go to the doctor, the store, the library and pass it on to others.
Although homeschooling and bring willing to quarantine in case of exposure takes away some of the likely hood I still don't think you are doing your basic hishtadlus to be responsible both to your family and to others .

amother

Sienna

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:12 pm

The recent outbreak in Detroit was started by someone who spread it before he knew that he had the measles, although he did have symptoms. So by the time you begin the quarantine, you may have already spread it.

amother

Olive

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:15 pm

Sebastian wrote:

OP the lack of responsibility bothers me more than the non vax. Outside of an outbreak I don't care if ppl vaccinate.

We really should care. The outbreak comes BECAUSE of non vaxers.

oliveoil

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:18 pm

I'm more concerned about the fact that you homeschool but you and the children rarely leave house/yard. Vaccinations aside, that doesn't sound healthy.

amother

Olive

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:55 pm

oliveoil wrote:

I'm more concerned about the fact that you homeschool but you and the children rarely leave house/yard. Vaccinations aside, that doesn't sound healthy.

Yes,yes ,yes,
Honestly it creeped me out too I hope those kids are ok.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:55 pm

Going to a friend's in Jerusalem, I sat for an hour next to some runny nosed kids on the 317 bus.

I currently have body aches, fever, chills, sore throat, and a runny nose.

I may have a cold, or I may be coming down with measles. It's hard to tell right now.

I was born in 1965, and I don't remember when (or if) I've had a second MMR booster. 4 years ago I had my titres done, but now I'm hearing that titres are not always accurate.

I will be quarantining myself for the rest of chol hamoed.

This stinks. Sad

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:07 pm

Op, no one in your family goes to shul?
How can it be that no one ever leaves the house? I get the homeschool part but no one works outside the house?
You never need to shop in any store? No errands?
This doesn’t sound possible unless you are a true hermit.
After a family member gets very sick from the measles, you can be sure him and his family members are cursing the one who brought the illness to the family.

amother

Salmon

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:15 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Regarding measles, you would not become symptomatic until 7-14 days after exposure, typically closer to 14 days.

amother

Violet

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:38 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Regarding measles, you would not become symptomatic until 7-14 days after exposure, typically closer to 14 days.

This. And I don't believe there is such a thing as false positives in titers.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:46 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Perhaps I am missing something.

Full disclosure: Most of my children are not vaccinated. We do not live in or near any of the areas of current outbreak.

But:

If we are exposed to someone with measles, there is at most 4 days before that person will know that he/she has measles. And presumably, the health department will issue notices that people in a certain area on certain days may have been exposed.

The incubation period for measles is 7-21 days.

So if we find out that we may have been exposed, we simply quarantine ourselves for 3 weeks.

We let any potential guests know that we may have been exposed to measles, and that they are coming at their own risk and for their own safety should be fully vaccinated. (Of course this risk is minute as long as there are no signs of illness in our children, because from what I understand measles isn't contagious until you are feverish and feeling ill, although it isn't recognizable as measles until a few days later.)

My kids are homeschooled, I work from home, we don't live in an apartment building, and we rarely go out much beyond our yard. I got at least one MMR, but anyhow I can have groceries delivered to our porch and do not need to go out.

If none of us are sick after that three week period, we can safely assume we don't have the measles.

So how exactly are we "rodfim" and a danger to society? We are only choosing to accept a certain level of risk upon ourselves.

Your kids never go to shul? Your kids don't play with other kids? You never take your kids to the library? You never take your kids on a nature hike? You never take your kids to the doctor or dentist? You never have to pick up anything at the pharmacy? You and your kids never have to get a new pair of glasses?

This doesn't sound right.

lucky14

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:58 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I think she is saying that if they find out that they have been exposed they wont go out for 3 weeks. And that they don't go out often as it is now. Not that they NEVER go out.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 10:11 pm

lucky14 wrote:

I think she is saying that if they find out that they have been exposed they wont go out for 3 weeks. And that they don't go out often as it is now. Not that they NEVER go out.

Okay, I see. It's still really odd for a religious family, because at the very least you're in shul a couple of times, if not more, on Shabbat.

amother

Olive

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 10:53 pm

lucky14 wrote:

I think she is saying that if they find out that they have been exposed they wont go out for 3 weeks. And that they don't go out often as it is now. Not that they NEVER go out.

We are just responding to her. She said they"rarely" go out. That is quite extreme.

amother

Orange

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 11:24 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

We are just responding to her. She said they"rarely" go out. That is quite extreme.

Reminds me of the Turpins. Not that its Ops situation but it just reminded me.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Apr 23 2019, 1:19 am

I am posting anonymously because many people know about my situation. My father a”h passed away five years ago. He was sick with a crippling illness called Guillain Barre which he suffered from for ten years. The illness was traced back to the flu shot. How do we know this? The pharmaceutical company that produced the vaccine was facing multiple lawsuits because others were contracting the same disease from the vaccine, and so they settled out of court with my parents for a very large sum.

Do I vaccinate my children? ABSOLUTELY. All of my siblings vaccinate their children as well. The ONLY scientifically proven risks associated with any of the vaccines are the very same risk - at a much higher rate - for being unvaccinated. Guillain Barre is a known disease that one can get from having the flu. Which makes sense that it is a (very rare) risk from the vaccine. Far more people (this is statistically proven) contract the illness from the actual communicable disease than the vaccine. I vaccinate all my children with all of the required vaccines and opt out of the flu shot which is optional.

Which brings me to the next step in answering your question. The reason the flu shot is optional is because the flu, like the common cold, generally does not pose a fatal threat to those who contract it. The vaccines that are mandatory per the department of health guidelines are preventing diseases which pose a lethal threat or threat of serious bodily harm to a significant percentage of those who contract it.

You mentioned how bothered you were by the “hate” in the replies of other mothers on this forum. I have seen similar posts on this forum from other mothers who don’t vaccinate and they use the term ‘hate’ as well. It’s a word borne out of defensiveness and often an attempt to deflect blame. It really doesn’t belong in this context at all because hate is such a strong word, it is almost always rooted in something deeper than difference of opinion or beliefs. Frustration or anger is a much more accurate word for how people are feeling right now towards those who don’t vaccinate. The same is true for using terms like “fear mongering” when people cite the health risks associated with the disease for which the DOH requires vaccinations.

When you see a no-smoking sign, that is not because there is hate towards smokers. It is not a message of hate or fear mongering, whether you believe the studies of second hand smoke or not. If someone is smoking near me and I get up and walk away so that I don’t have to breathe in second hand smoke, it is not because I hate the person smoking. In the exact same way, people are frustrated and bothered by the exposure to life threatening diseases caused by the refusal of those who don’t vaccinate (for non-medical reasons) not because of hate but simply because we all share the same air. Is there a guarantee that I will get cancer if I breathe in second hand smoke? No, but I don’t want to face that risk. The government protects me by banning smoking from all public places and most businesses today have banned smoking from their properties to protect the public.

Which now brings me to fully answering your question. Have your children ever seen a no-smoking sign? If they have, then you have been in a public place. Being in a public place with your children means that you are putting the public at risk of exposure to life threatening diseases. It is known that with various diseases, including measles, a person can be carrying and spreading the disease without even knowing it because the symptoms haven’t become apparent yet.

You describe a pretty isolated lifestyle but are you sure you have never been with your children in any of the following: a public park, an elevator, a bus, train or plane, a Shul, a simcha, a store of any kind, a beach or sidewalk that isn’t completely deserted, a hotel, a recreational facility like a fun zone or mini golf etc, ....you get the idea. This would mean you would have to have your own in-house Megillah reading, your children are not giving out Mishloach manot on Purim and they don’t go to birthday parties, and won’t go to bar or bas mitzvahs or have a celebration for friends and family when they turn bar or bas mitzvah themselves. It also means if you have sons, they won’t ever daven with a minyan and your kids don’t hear kriyas hatorah on Shabbos, and your kids will all daven at home on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and say Eicha at home on Tisha B’Av.

I think it’s pretty obvious that the average person’s lifestyle (especially a frum person), even if moderately isolated, will never be at the point of having no contact with the outside world. And since we all share the same air it’s only responsible if you make sure the air other people breathe is disease-free. The only way to do that is to do your part to immunize your kids so that they don’t become carriers of those diseases and that they aren’t (knowingly or unknowingly) infecting the air. If not, then yes, it’s irresponsible.

amother

Olive

Tue, Apr 23 2019, 1:47 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

Reminds me of the Turpins. Not that its Ops situation but it just reminded me.

Omg! that's exactly what I was thinking but didn't want anyone getting all insulted for op.

crust

Tue, Apr 23 2019, 1:53 am

Love your post mystrose

amother

Olive

Tue, Apr 23 2019, 1:59 am

Thank you mistyrose. That was beautiful.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Watching your father suffer so long must have been so painful.
Thank you for sharing.

ora_43

Tue, Apr 23 2019, 2:00 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So how exactly are we "rodfim" and a danger to society? We are only choosing to accept a certain level of risk upon ourselves.

I wouldn't call you "rodfim."

I would like to point out that your kids are part of society, too. It's good that you would go so far to prevent them from making others sick, but you seem to be skipping over the risks to them themselves.

I mean let's say you have 3 non-vaccinated kids. An exposure to measles would mean better than 50% odds of at least one of them ending up in the hospital. (Which, in turn, means quarantining them just got a whole lot harder, but I'll leave that issue aside.)

They'd probably survive it, but still, you can see why some people would argue for vaccines based on that in and of itself, right? The same way there are many people who take a negative view of parents who feed their kids lots of junk food, or let them watch too much TV. People have strong opinions about parenting, especially when it comes to anything that could lead to physical injury.

In other words - the problem is a bit of both. The no-responsibility is what makes people truly furious, but the no-vax is still controversial in and of itself.

imasoftov

Tue, Apr 23 2019, 6:36 am

My neighbors shoot guns in their backyard in all directions, and sometimes one hits one of my windows. Should I be bothered by the bullets or by their negligence?