Math skills and finances (s/o feminism)

amother

Lilac

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:51 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

my mother was a public school math teacher. Whenever I tell my dh that other people are involved in my mother's finances because she struggles this stuff he finds it so perplexing. Yes she can add but the organizational skills to be on top of things, the decision making skills to figure stuff out.... that is where she has trouble.

I agree with you finances is not just math.

I agree that organizational skills are more crucial than math for managing household finances. There are some skilled mathematicians who don’t keep track of bank statements for example.

I think the mention of math in the feminism thread was just an example vs the poster strongly believing that one must have Math to manage the household. The original example on that thread was a gambler and presumably nobody wants a gambler managing their household finances irrespective of their mathematical abilities!

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:57 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

My favorite color is blue and I like the wheels on my blue car more than I like pink and faces. And I am biologically a girl.

Is your post real? Please tell me you forgot the sarcasm emoji?

So your anecdotal evidence completely negates the clearly evidenced tendency that girls like pink and boys like blue. And your story also clearly proves that this is a social construct rather than innate. Rolling Eyes

Her point was that the tendency to like or dislike math is inborn and has nothing to do with social conditioning. I'm not sure if I agree with that -- or more, I believe that the social conditioning to dislike math is equal for boys and girls. I actually have more female students who are good at math than male students.

What I do believe is that females have a tendency towards multidimensional thinking and multitasking, which correlates better with careers in the arts (even the therapies are more arts than sciences, despite the number of science classes required). Men have a tendency towards linear, one-track thinking, which suits math-related fields better. I'm not saying that everyone is like this -- I've been told that I have more of a male brain, but does my anecdote make the whole premise untrue? It's just tendencies. If 55% of men are like this and 45% of women, that's still a tendency.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:08 am

smileforamile wrote:

Random factiod: In the Victorian era, pink was for boys. It was a derivative of red, which is stronger and more "war like". Blue was for girls, because it was considered "calming and ladylike".

DD has always hated pink. She's always preferred black, with silver or sparkly accents. Not in the goth way, but more of a classic, elegant look. She also despises bows and hair ornaments of any kind. Anything fussy makes her feel stupid looking.

amother

Lilac

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:12 am

smileforamile wrote:

Hah! Apologies, I was merely jesting, not offering up empirical evidence from my massive sample of one. Can't Believe It

I agree with the idea that girls are more likely to be dissuaded from pursuing math so it is heartening to hear that you have girls in your class who are doing well. They will need the Math for measuring flour in their pink kitchens when they marry. Hiding

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:16 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

It starts much earlier than elementary school. I have seen it on young children before school. There is something that attracts girls to pink and boys to blue. Baby girls are attached to faces and baby boys to wheels. There is such a thing as biology.

I heard that in some cultures pink was used for boys and blue for girls. And one could argue that if newborn girls are dressed in pink stretchies and boys in blue, that could affect their attraction to the color, if that were indeed true. It's not necessarily biological.

Now it's too late to ask my mother A"H what she did to ensure that green is, and always has been, my favorite color.

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:17 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Hah! Apologies, I was merely jesting, not offering up empirical evidence from my massive sample of one. Can't Believe It

I'm a public school teacher. These girls have an opportunity to pursue math-related fields if they want to, but they don't want to.

Math is just a universally dreaded and hated subject. The reasons are probably a combination of biological, cultural, societal, educational, and psychological.

I was subtly and not-so-subtly dissuaded from becoming an actuary. And you know what? I listened. I don't regret that, though I tremendously regret not having had more options in math than actuary or math education. Wish I had done computer science or data analytics...

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:19 am

smileforamile wrote:

I think being good at math is biological but I don't think it's gender specific.

My father is an actuary and quite a few of his children and grandchildren are good at math - myself included. No specific gender stands out in this regard.

With regard to the bolded - many explain the Gemarah of "Nashim Datam Kalos" this way.

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:20 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I was using the color as more of an example of the tendencies of boys and girls towards certain things. My favorite color is blue, and for a long time, I refused to put my baby girl in anything pink. I've since mellowed, but the headbands with big pink bows are still a big no-no.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total

groovy1224

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:23 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

This is exactly the attitude I mean, or similar to it. Yes, some people (regardless of gender) have more of an affinity for math. Just like some people have better voices, some people have freckles while others tan, etc. But please do not communicate to your daughter, either explicitly or implicitly that she is not 'wired' for math the way her brother is. It will most certainly become a self fulfilling prophecy.

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:25 am

groovy1224 wrote:

Is that really what people communicate to their daughters more than their sons? I haven't seen that at all... maybe because the girls in my family are better at math than the boys, or because I've loved math since I learned how to count at 18 months. Or maybe just because my family isn't into allowing these gender stereotypes to influence career choices. I don't know.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total

rikki 1

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:38 am

so, my husband used to be in charge of finances especially since I"m hard of hearing and struggled on the phone. Then I had to take over because the finances were being run into the ground with his forgetfulness, not being on top of things. Now the finances are more stable (although not much coming in).

Good thing too, because now I"m getting divorced and don't have another new thing to learn how to do. I just use technology to get around actual phonecalls (most of the time).

groovy1224

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:38 am

smileforamile wrote:

I'm no scientist, but I firmly believe that so much of it is cultural conditioning, we'll never know the 'real' percentages. I remember reading an article once about why Asian students score so much higher on math & science than American students, and it essentially came down to discipline. Parents & educators expect children to work hard regardless of natural affinity for the subject. Americans are more likely to believe that innate ability is the biggest variable in success.

This made sense to me, since in all my college math classes (and I took many, I majored in math) the majority of the American students were male, but it was a much more even mix of other cultures. This is also obviously not scientific, but was notable to me. Perhaps they just did not grow up with all that much deference to biological ability, and that's what made the difference.

Iymnok

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:39 am

[quote="amother [ Azure ]
I would say in my community that men have been taught logic and lack math skills. They often do well in business. They tend to invest in real estate.[/quote]
Since they lack education they invest in real estate. It requires minimal training, done organization and money.
It does not need any more logic or math than any other business.

groovy1224

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:41 am

smileforamile wrote:

I don't teach math but my husband does, he actually tells the girls at the beginning of the year that he will not accept the 'no one in my family is good at math so I'm not either' excuse. He says he doesn't have to say it with the boys, though a few here and there try it. He teaches in 2 community schools in a specific community (one boys, one girls) so perhaps it's somewhat cultural.

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:42 am

Chayalle wrote:

I think that having a neti'ah towards choosing a particular field is more gender-specific, though. Even if a woman is good at math, on the whole she is more likely to want to work in a social setting, whereas a man is more likely to go for the single-minded, less social field. I realize that I'm making very broad generalizations here.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:44 am

smileforamile wrote:

Agree that may be true for some men. I know plenty of women who prefer less of a social setting (sometimes because of their personality type.)

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:45 am

groovy1224 wrote:

That has everything to do with fixed vs. growth mindset, which from what I can tell is not necessarily gender-specific. (Google Jo Boaler if you don't know what I'm talking about.) You're saying that it's Asian vs. American rather than male vs. female.

Is it possible that women have more of a fixed mindset than men? Certainly. Is it possible that American society conditions women to have more of a fixed mindset than men? That would be a fascinating research subject.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:47 am

Chayalle wrote:

Agree that may be true for some men. I know plenty of women who prefer less of a social setting (sometimes because of their personality type.)

Introverted teacher here. It's tough. Still, I chose math education over a corporate career precisely because I wanted more social interaction, though I'm re-thinking that choice.

I don't know. It just seems to me that there are biological differences in career preferences, rather than mathematical abilities.

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Jade

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:51 am

groovy1224 wrote:

That's very interesting. I wonder what a study in the general population would find.

From my experience as a public school student teacher and regular teacher in three wildly different and diverse school settings, I've found that a fixed mindset about math does not have any biological difference. I taught a mixture of upper, mixed, and lower classes. 95% of my students dislike math, and 85% of them think they're bad at it before they step into my classroom.

Last week, my principal announced that he won't be coming back next year. He talked about when he started the school and how he enlisted the help of one of the math teachers (the head of the math department now) to build a math department. He smirked and said, "Since so-and-so [this math teacher] is not in the room right now, I can say that I am not good at math." This head of the math department [let's call him Joe] works very hard on building a growth mindset in his students, and he does not allow them to say that they are bad at math. He gets upset when other teachers say it, as well -- but they do. They all give the students the same message: we're bad at math and we're fine, so why should you bother?

Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:53 am

Now this needs to go back to the feminism thread (lol) but over time I have come to believe that gender stereotypes are almost entirely social/cultural. Even with things that seem biological, if you look closely, it's very hard to tease out socialization from anything. I do believe that math affinity is somewhat innate, and that some people (regardless of gender) are naturally going to have better number sense than others. I don't think any child should be told that they are or aren't a natural in a given subject. They'll figure out on their own soon enough, no need for an adult to subtly encourage or discourage one subject over another.