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This explains my request for safety studies done in the US
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jun 18 2019, 4:51 pm
Only one reason:
https://www.soundchoice.org/op.....gislators/
Scroll down to see some differences from US to Japan.
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jun 18 2019, 10:50 pm
I'd love to hear from some SENSIBLE pro-vaxxers on this.

Civil discussion only. If your response to any post on this thread will be bla bla bla, I am respectfully asking you to move to the Fashion and Beauty sub-forum. Thank you.
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amother




White


Post  Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:01 pm
My filter won't let me open the link. Can you paraphrase what it says?
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amother




Green


Post  Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:06 pm
Here is David Gorski's response.

https://respectfulinsolence.co.....a-deisher/


I personally haven't the credentials to understand any of this.
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amother




Magenta


Post  Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:13 pm
This open letter is requesting safer vaccines, due to worrisome fetal cell DNA components in commonly used vaccines.

Author: Dr. Theresa Deisher.
Doctorate from Stanford University in Molecular and Cellular Physiology in 1990
post-doctoral work at the University of Washington

In short: The author hypothesizes that the human DNA material in vaccines triggers autoimmune responses.

She states that a buildup of fetal DNA is what causes labor - the body attempting to eject the foreign fetus. (No citation is given for this theory.)

She references this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28378499
which demonstrates that self-cord blood infusions in autistic children causes significant improvement, which would suggest that autism is acquired (Downs for example will not be helped by cord blood, because it is at the chromosomal level).

She states that the level of foreign DNA in vaccines is significant. One quote: "The rubella portion of the MMR vaccine contains human derived fetal DNA contaminants of about 175 ngs, more than 10x over the recommended WHO threshold of 10 ng per vaccine dose" (I did not look up this citation.)

Her suggested solution: "Pressure manufacturers to switch back to animal cell line derived rubella vaccines as was successfully done in Japan."

My take: Interesting, and certainly merits further study in search of safer vaccination.
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:14 pm
amother [ Green ] wrote:
Here is David Gorski's response.

https://respectfulinsolence.co.....a-deisher/


I personally haven't the credentials to understand any of this.

I appreciate the time you took to find this, and I will read through it fully. But my point wasn't to address this specific issue. My point is that different vaccines are produced differently in different countries. Additionally and not mentioned in my OP, different countries have different vaccine schedules, different amount of boosters.

Therefore, studies done in other countries, with their vaccines and their schedules, shouldn't be used as proof for the safety of our schedule and vaccines. Our government has an obligation to prove the safety of something before mandating it.
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amother




White


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 12:27 am
I would assume that animal DNA would be more problematic, at least in some ways. It is an interesting theory, but since Autism predates the MMR, and has been found to have a genetic component, this is obviously not the entire story.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 7:04 am
amother [ White ] wrote:
I would assume that animal DNA would be more problematic, at least in some ways. It is an interesting theory, but since Autism predates the MMR, and has been found to have a genetic component, this is obviously not the entire story.


True and anti-vaxers are just as upset about animal DNA, however, in Paul Offit's 2011 book, Deadly Choices, he told the story of how some parents, lead by the journalist father of a child who was paralysed by the live polio vaccine, worked to get the killed virus vaccine for American children. Because he worked with, and not against, science, the scientific community listened.
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 8:36 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I appreciate the time you took to find this, and I will read through it fully. But my point wasn't to address this specific issue. My point is that different vaccines are produced differently in different countries. Additionally and not mentioned in my OP, different countries have different vaccine schedules, different amount of boosters.

Therefore, studies done in other countries, with their vaccines and their schedules, shouldn't be used as proof for the safety of our schedule and vaccines. Our government has an obligation to prove the safety of something before mandating it.


However, autism rates have continued to rise in Japan, independent of their vaccination schedule, which actually includes more vaccines than the US. They also have many volunteers trying vaccines. In general, most countries have an identical schedule to the US because the schedules have been designed to protect children when they need the most protection.

In addition, Japan gives DTP not DTaP which is much more likely to cause adverse reactions.
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amother




OP


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 8:49 am
nchr wrote:
However, autism rates have continued to rise in Japan, independent of their vaccination schedule, which actually includes more vaccines than the US. They also have many volunteers trying vaccines. In general, most countries have an identical schedule to the US because the schedules have been designed to protect children when they need the most protection.

In addition, Japan gives DTP not DTaP which is much more likely to cause adverse reactions.

You're missing my point. My point is not, let's compare Japan's schedule and vaccines to ours on a point by point basis.

My point is that because there are differences in the product and its administration, we need studies done by an independent researcher of our product and our administration of it. Our government should not be stopping to do research on a medical product that is mandated in its laws.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 12:02 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You're missing my point. My point is not, let's compare Japan's schedule and vaccines to ours on a point by point basis.

My point is that because there are differences in the product and its administration, we need studies done by an independent researcher of our product and our administration of it. Our government should not be stopping to do research on a medical product that is mandated in its laws.


But parents have avenues to address concerns that at least makes them sound like intelligent people. You can approach lawmakers with constructive suggestions.
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amother




OP


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 1:57 pm
southernbubby wrote:
But parents have avenues to address concerns that at least makes them sound like intelligent people. You can approach lawmakers with constructive suggestions.

You think? Did you try? You're labeled as an anti-vaxxing quack.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 3:46 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You think? Did you try? You're labeled as an anti-vaxxing quack.

I didn't try because I trust vaccines to the same extent that I trust any pharmaceutical product.
I think that if someone were to approach their elected officials and explain that you would really like to vaccinate but feel that it's only fair that mandated pharmaceutical products undergo independent testing, that you wouldn't be branded an anti-vaxer. Try it and see.
It is a different argument than claiming that it violates your religion.

It will probably take years before anything changes, however, because studies take time.
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amother




Green


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 3:58 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I appreciate the time you took to find this, and I will read through it fully. But my point wasn't to address this specific issue. My point is that different vaccines are produced differently in different countries. Additionally and not mentioned in my OP, different countries have different vaccine schedules, different amount of boosters.

Therefore, studies done in other countries, with their vaccines and their schedules, shouldn't be used as proof for the safety of our schedule and vaccines. Our government has an obligation to prove the safety of something before mandating it.


so I'm concluding from this that the US has not done studies on vaccine safety, nor has reasonable support for its vaccine schedule?
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amother




OP


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:14 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I didn't try because I trust vaccines to the same extent that I trust any pharmaceutical product.
I think that if someone were to approach their elected officials and explain that you would really like to vaccinate but feel that it's only fair that mandated pharmaceutical products undergo independent testing, that you wouldn't be branded an anti-vaxer. Try it and see.
It is a different argument than claiming that it violates your religion.

It will probably take years before anything changes, however, because studies take time.

Southernbubby, I say this with utmost respect. You are naive. Blessedly so.
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amother




OP


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:15 pm
amother [ Green ] wrote:
so I'm concluding from this that the US has not done studies on vaccine safety, nor has reasonable support for its vaccine schedule?

US has done woefully insufficient studies on individual vaccines, and no studies at all on its own vaccine schedule.
If you know otherwise, please point me in that direction.
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:35 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You're missing my point. My point is not, let's compare Japan's schedule and vaccines to ours on a point by point basis.

My point is that because there are differences in the product and its administration, we need studies done by an independent researcher of our product and our administration of it. Our government should not be stopping to do research on a medical product that is mandated in its laws.


The government should not be conducting tests, but I doubt that is what you'd want. Independent researchers conduct studies on vaccines all the time. The current schedule is studied, as are any potential future vaccines. Vaccines are improved. OPV was replaced with the IPV in the US. The measles vaccine was improved. We made an acellular pertussis vaccine that results in less adverse reactions than the previous one. We have a new pneumoccal vaccine.

If there is a specific concern you want looked at - and it has not already been examined in detail - or even if it has - then discuss that specific concern. Screaming "toxins" and "autism" don't get you anywhere because such concerns have been disproven and screaming pseudo science doesn't make your claims or concerns very reliable.

I.E. Let's say I'm concerned about Cipro being prescribed too often - and that the chances of severe side effects such as tendon tearing and heart damage are not worth the risk of utilizing other medications. I'd reach out to doctors - ask them to rather prescribe other medicines - I'd write to the CDC, FDA, etc. I'd hire an attorney to do it legally. This is a concern I have, but not to the point that I would market it - I don't believe in enforcing my opinions or concerns on others - I'm a look the other way kind of person, but many people - yourself included from the tone of this post - are not. So ask for change in a way that makes you seem reliable and stable not ignorant and biased.

On a side note, vaccine manufacturers even have incentives to appeal to anti vaxxers and create "green vaccines" such as Flucelvax.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:43 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Southernbubby, I say this with utmost respect. You are naive. Blessedly so.


It is a legitimate concern that there are no competing vaccine producers. If vaccines were each produced by multiple companies and consumers could choose a brand, it might make more consumers willing to trust it. As it is, nobody wants to produce the product.
From what I have read, not all vaccines made cheaply in foreign countries are adequately regulated.
But what happens if we differentiate between nonsense and legitimate concerns? Even in my naivity, what happens when a group of people come to present viable solutions? Don't elected officials want to be reelected?
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imorethanamother




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 6:13 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

She references this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28378499
which demonstrates that self-cord blood infusions in autistic children causes significant improvement, which would suggest that autism is acquired (Downs for example will not be helped by cord blood, because it is at the chromosomal level).


Cord blood does not "cause" "significant improvement". You are not using scientific verbiage correctly.

First of all, autism is an umbrella diagnosis that includes a multi-factoral origin. Often, autism is a co-morbid condition.

Cord blood is an extremely controversial treatment currently undergoing clinical trials. At the moment, the rationale behind the treatment is that cytokines can somehow either (a) improve neuronal connections that are non-existent or non-functional - but do not "cause" improvement directly (b) reduce inflammation based on the pre-existing bias/belief that inflammation is the origin for autism's neurological issues. Also, not a cause for improvement, but a perceived band-aid to a pre-existing condition.

In the very small study performed, they did not:

1) insist on nearly-identical or strict definitions and origins of the autism diagnosis. (the definition did not exclude comorbidity)
2) use laboratory or physiological means to determine reduction of inflammation or neuron development. (they relied mostly on parental report)
3) exclude any other simultaneous behavioral modification therapy, diet, and medication during the trial. (the gains might have occurred because of other therapeutic means)

Significant improvement is determined through the often abused P-value system. In small studies, the P-value is higher than in larger scale studies, for obvious reasons. In this study, the P-value did not equal a significant improvement.

As far as her other concerns, well, she certainly has an agenda, doesn't she? In fact, she has much more of a transparent agenda than all that talk about Big Pharma.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jun 19 2019, 6:55 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You think? Did you try? You're labeled as an anti-vaxxing quack.

That’s not what gets people labeled as quacks.
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