Is DD spoiled or justified?

amother

Burgundy

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 3:44 pm

If this child is not generally selfish, I would respect her wishes. Some people have an expansive idea of privacy, and that extends to their clothes. Sharing is hard for such people and they need to be eased into this kind of chesed.

There are some people who would be happy to have guests stay over when they are not home. Others would never allow such a thing. It's not quite the same as this situation, but the difference in both cases comes from how much is considered private.

Again, if she's generally able to do for others, let this go.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 3:58 pm

watergirl wrote:

I agreed with you on the bolded point. Moving forward, you can give it to someone else or sell it yourself, whatever. I get it and I understand you. But once you DO give it away, its gone.

Maybe I'm not typical? My daughter has great taste in clothes and she and I both laugh and feel good when one of my friends calls dibs on it. I've even said, in front of a friend, "Daughter, keep it clean, thats going to soandso when you're done with it". Or maybe this is why my daughter is so cool with giving away her stuff to our friends - because its just part of the culture in my house.

We are in agreement that the daughter should have some say - but I do not think that she should be able to say to give it to a random clothing gmach in Othertownsville. It goes to this friend or that friend. If she has someone else in mind - fine. Not some other place just to get it out of my town. See the difference?

And yes, if she is behaving in a vain manner about not wanting this particular kid to have it - her behavior will be called vain.

Why can't she give it to a random clothing gemach. I prefer my things go someplace where I won't see them abused or sold. It's going for tzedukah and it gets it out of the house.

thunderstorm

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 4:14 pm

I didn't read all the responses so maybe someone mentioned this. But perhaps OP, your daughter may feel defined by her clothes. She may feel that the only reason why she has certain friends is because of her unique and different clothes. (Which is a problem) . If someone else wears what defined her , it takes away from her identity so to speak. Maybe there is a deeper meaning behind why she doesn't want a nerdier girl wearing her garments. Maybe she suffers from a low self image.
A family member of mine is a florist. She did the floral arrangements for a simcha of a very well to do person. The following day there was going to be a simcha at the same hall. The baalas simcha of the first simcha told my family member that she does not want the next Baalei simcha using her flowers the next day because she wanted to be "original" and that she would rather have her throw all the perfect arrangements In the garbage than give it to someone with less money. We can say "Wow! What a snob." Or way can think "Poor woman, showing off is the only thing that makes her feel special". There may be deeper issues as to why she has these feelings. Most 12 yr olds feel really good about themselves if they are able to do a chesed.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 4:59 pm

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

Why can't she give it to a random clothing gemach. I prefer my things go someplace where I won't see them abused or sold. It's going for tzedukah and it gets it out of the house.

There is no random clothing gemach available to her.

Further - what kind of chinuch is it to say 'we should help those we don't know before those we know - because its emotionally easier?

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:35 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

There is no random clothing gemach available to her.

Further - what kind of chinuch is it to say 'we should help those we don't know before those we know - because its emotionally easier?

It's teaching chinuch according to Maimonides. It the best kind of chinuch.

Unless you think you know better than Maimonides. If you have issues that it is emotionally easier to follow Maimonides than rando amothers, I got nothing more to advise.

amother

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:47 pm

For those reading into this as a larger problem, I don't think that's accurate. She happens to be exceptionally empathetic and chessed-loving for her age. For example, her teachers tell me when girls pair up to do a project, they notice that she volunteers to work with the girls no one else has chosen (and she is very popular), she offers babysitting for free as chessed, she came home very distraught recently that her friend (actually the one we gave the clothing to the first time) wasn't going to camp because they can't afford it and could we please somehow secretly pay for their camp, etc.

So that's why I'm focusing on this particular situation and not as a larger snob/selfish/lack of empathy or chessed issue...

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:52 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

There is no random clothing gemach available to her.

Further - what kind of chinuch is it to say 'we should help those we don't know before those we know - because its emotionally easier?

The word chinuch may not be in place here. Her child might be in pain when seeing or hearing comments about her former clothes. The mother has to first mother the child than do chesed...

animeme

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:59 pm

Can your mother take them back to her town?

Do you know for sure that she's not getting teased or being talked to a lot about this? If she's is a group of girls where clothes are a big deal and they're always mentioning it, that could be really hard. Even if there's nothing negative being said, it could be a lot of attention she doesn't want.

I don't think it's within her rights to decide the clothes shouldn't be donated, but I think she should have a say in where if she is negatively affected. If your mom or someone else can't help, maybe the two of you can find an organization and put together and send a package to them once or twice a year.

ra_mom

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 6:01 pm

Chayalle wrote:

On a Hashkafic level, I agree with Watergirl. Ideally, our children should all be ready to learn good middos, chessed, etc...they should be proud to benefit others, happy to give what they no longer need to someone else.

On a realistic level, our children don't always measure up with what we'd like and even what should be. Sometimes we have to take our children at the level they are at and work with what we are given.

If OP's daughter is not ready to learn the lesson, then forcing it on her by just telling her this is the right way, and shaming her very human feelings, may seriously backfire.

I think this thread has some good ideas about how to talk to your child and see if she is workable with giving her clothes to someone in need. Try to teach her empathy, try to teach her what it might feel like to be a girl who doesn't have those kind of clothes in the first place, and how good it feels to be gifted those by someone who doesn't need them anymore.

But at the end of the day, if your daughter cannot overcome her feelings, I feel they should not be ignored.

Here is where your example comes in OP. You know, telling kids "do as I say" doesn't work. "Do as I do" is much more powerful. If you are trying to teach your daughter empathy and giving, but you are not willing to go the extra mile of hardship to find a place to donate it to that is comfortable for her, then you are not modeling what you are preaching. You are taking the easy way out, so why shouldn't she.

If at the end of the day she sees that you will go the extra mile to ensure the clothes go to someone who needs them, she may learn something about sacrificing to be giving. Let her see how much this means to you. In fact, try to involve her in it (packing it up, shlepping, etc...)

But if you just give it to the 2nd hand resale shop, the lesson may very well be lost on her.

Incredibly put Chayalle

giselle

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 6:24 pm

Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see the difference between this and let’s say, telling my son that he is going to his classmate’s bar mitzva whom he claims no one likes or wants to go to. I’m not really giving him a choice. He has friends and is well liked and it would be very mean if he did not attend. To me this is basic chinuch. I always tell my children that if we are lucky to have something nice, we share with others (obviously this doesn’t apply to everything).

dovy

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 7:58 pm

OP if u decide not to give to your community, the batya organization has trucks that pick up used things and either give to people in need, or sell for the money which goes to tzedakah. Its called "pick purple ". Never donated to them, but heard of people donating to them. This way you don't have to shlep everything to a gemach.

Sounds like you have a sweet caring girl, who just feels uncomfortable when she sees others wearing clothes that she felt special in; and the comments she gets about it from girls, probably adds to her feelings. We have to know when to push, and like here, maybe not to push,but show empathy to her feelings. Maybe after some time of not giving her clothes to girls she knows , and you not mentioning it, she may do it in her own.
Behatzlacha!

amother

Bisque

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 8:17 pm

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

Please find me the citation anywhere in anything that Rambam has written that suggests that if someone comes to me and asks me for some clothes - that I should turn that person away so I can achieve a higher level of charity by giving it to someone anonymously - especially outside of my direct community (and spare myself the discomfort of seeing someone in my or my children's former clothing).

amother

Babypink

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 8:30 pm

I'm trying to imagine this situation: let's say the grandma is from Boropark and gifts OP's daughter expensive "chasidish" outfits that no one else is wearing in their town. While this type of dressing is normal for OP' s family, someone else wearing the same outfit looks like a caricature on their lifestyle.
Or maybe they aren't chasidish, but bubby's taste is upper class and the shabbos clothing is awesome, but way too formal for the community the granddaughter is living in - again the girl feels double the pressure of people examining her and her clothes a second time around.
Anyhow, the kid's uncomfortable. Let the grandmothet give the clothes to a gemach in her area. Let your daughter fit in with her friends.... ( Anyone reading Building Billington in the Inyan?? ,lol)

Metukah

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 8:37 pm

nchr wrote:

Your daughter is out of line. I would never entertain this behavior in any way, shape or form. Also, there is no reason why anyone would know who the clothing previously belonged to. You need to nip this in the bud.

I agree.

I think the fact that you understand her op, shows that her line of thought is maternally bred. You feel it, so off course she does too. Can't call her spoiled. It's you, not her.

ectomorph

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 8:50 pm

nchr wrote:

I wouldn't put it so harshly. But I would explain the concept of aniyei ircha kodem. And explain it's a big mitzva and we're proud to do it.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 8:55 pm

I think it has to do with the out of town detail.
I live oot and have the exact same issue with one of my daughter's. She is generous and helpful , not spoiled in other areas, but is very bothered about having her friend wear her outgrown clothing . I still can not pinpoint which part of it makes her uncomfortable . In a small city ,the clothing is easily identifiable .
The girl on the receiving end ,happens to be a happy go lucky type that is completely unfazed by this arrangement. We try to teach our children to respect other's feelings ,and in order to do so we must also respect their feelings. If it's something that is very bothersome to your child even after discussing etc ,then it might be time to find another option of where to send the clothing .

amother

Taupe

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 9:26 pm

We aren't rich but I don't save clothing for many reasons and we always donate it after each season. My kids know we do and we have been doing it since they are very young. They think it's part of life, that when you are done with something you pass it on to others. I would not tolerate such an attitude from my children. She's embarrassed because the other girl is younger and nerdy? I think that's an attitude that needs to be dealt with now, it's not a good middah, and she should not be looking at/ judging others that way.

chestnut

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 10:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'm not as mystified as most people are about her embarrassment. Living out of town - the clothing she wears is unique and everyone recognizes it. It feels special to her. Then to have someone else's nerdy (in her eyes) younger sister walking around wearing it and having everyone point that out - is embarrassing to her. I still think the chessed should outweigh that feeling, but I understand her.

If that's the reason, then I'd say, yes, spoiled and immature (age plays a role) but should still be respected to a degree. I'd try to send it to another community.