You are not on your level yet?

champagne

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 1:10 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Well if she’s in a chassidic sect and feeling bitter about not being able to “chill” then perhaps she’s better off leaving. Once she feels a bit more at ease maybe she can work on her love of judaism

Agreed.

champagne

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 1:13 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

And a message for all of us who have kids: lets respect our childrens differences and choices that may be different than ours. My daughter chose to go more to the right (which believe me can be even harder to swallow!) and it took me a while to be reallyok with that. But I saw that this way is her derech. It pulled her since she was little. She found a wonderful man to marry- also a bit more right than his family. They are the cutest happiest couple who really understands each others!

Wow, that’s honestly so amazing of you to be such an understanding and supportive mom. I’m sure your daughter really appreciates that Smile

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 1:15 pm

Am I the only one who hates these classifications and groups and sub groups and whatever? I dont classify myself as anything other than a jew- sometimes I feel more connected spiritually- some periods in my life less so- but even then I know gd loves me and I know the connection will come back I hate how all this polarizes us when in reality we’re all one and the same, one big jewish nation, more alike than unalike

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 1:17 pm

I understand that being part of a group can be good- I just hate that we look at each others as “others”

singleagain

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 1:30 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

You are def not alone. I feel like that too..

But.. when trying to articulate what I'm looking for in dating... I keep reverting back to stereotype. I want tv/movies/bway shows... I wear flip flops and short sleeves in the summer... Etc etc

It's a lot easier to say "modern" than making a long list.

And also yes I hate that I'm going to get judged based on things like my high school.. Which besides being 15 years ago... Never really defined me in the first place.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 1:32 pm

singleagain wrote:

Yeeees! To being defined according to your high school! Isnt that ridiculous?! My mom always waxes nostalgic about her good old days in school when the whole neighborhood attended the same by!

urban gypsy

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 2:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

They say sometimes to me that is in the sluchan aruch.

Wow OP your posts were super triggering to me so apologies to anyone if I offend, but I will respond by sharing my experience. I have been part of a Chabad community for many years and in my experience, yes they often pressure people to "level up" and often state chumros as halacha. The shulchan aruch they are quoting to you is likely the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, which contains a lot of customs that are far from universal to all Jews. It's imperative to educate yourself and learn the difference between halacha, minhag and chumra. Feel free to PM me to discuss further if you want.

amother

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 2:43 pm

Quote:

This is not a question of halacha. It's more a question of your social circles and family. Will they freak out and disown you? Will it upset your DH or your kid's education? Will the neighbors look at you weird? Are you OK with being judged by other people?

If your friends and family support you, and everything is good, then I don't think Hashem is going to get angry if you switch from Belz to Yeshivish. It's people you have to watch out for.

I think that is also part, if I would live in a big frum community I would totally dress myself frum, cover my hair if I go out to check the mail for instance, and be more makpid in my behaving and so on. Because I know I can be judged. It was a relief that I found frum friends who are making jokes about s.x and so on. Like when I was a kallah I've learned that the husband needs to wear his tzittzis and so on during relations and I was like wut... and I told one friend and she laughed and said ''Oy I would pull it of''. But that is between two women who are discussing that and laughed about it and not in public but just while drinking coffee on a shabbos afternoon.
Different is, is when I'm like in Prestwhich I totally don't walk without stockings because everyone wears stockings while here I walk with out stockings.

Quote:

Really, nobody can decide who is more holy! That's for Hashem.
Also being that you're a BT, keep in mind how what you take on may affect your family.
It's weird for someone to comment "you aren't on that level yet."

That is so true! Also for my family it is still hard that I'm frum. I was marrying my DH before living with him together but I had relations with him before marriage and that was hard for them to understand, and why did I want to be married? I was wearing skirts and stopped eating at their house my mother was seriously worried and anxious for a long time that I was going to be a fundamentalist. But honestly in the NL outside Amsterdam there is only Chabad and Chabad is to you what frum life is. Every haredi jew in Antwerp was from a ''sect'' and she really felt more for reform judaism and she still finds it difficuklt that I wear a wig and so on. Why can't I just be jewish without those strightenties? The hardest part is when the inlaws are coming and I'm inviting my parents over, my inlaws expect me to wear a sheital/tichel but my mom finds that very hard to see. It is soooo hard I need to let my parents getting used to this. It has a huge effect on your family especially if your family is so secular and you have more xtian relatives then Jewish ones and if they are Jewish they are no longer religious since generations before the WOII.

Quote:

Growing as a BT or ger is a difficult path, don't make it harder for yourself than it needs to be. Every traveler needs a reliable road map.

I think that is true, I can easily imitate frum woman who's family, friends and everything is frum since generations but then I'm not 'myself' and I'm also not making myself holier, no I will feel locked in a culture which is not mine and in the end I will go totally OTD chas ve chalilah. Plus my DH is MO (modern yeshivish maybe but we are on the whole spectrum in opinions and everything very LWMO but in some practices yeshivish maybe?) and he was my road map. But he is not the person to say what I need to do but he wants to be normal and know secular people and accept them. He does not want to live in a cholent pot and feeling pressured to go to a shiur or to wear no jeans anymore. He does dawen 3 times a day yes and sometimes in a minjan but sometimes not. And we watch movies and read secular books but I've learned that that is not good for your neshama and that you need to strive to go more spiritual and there is my problem. I do want read secular literature and to watch series and movies and that is why my transition took so long and now it is something it is still where I'm struggeling with. Because yeah I want to be the most spiritual person I can be, so that does mean that I need to let go for everything which is not spiritual and then I'm going on a higher level but I'm kinda hapy too with my drinking a bevarage while watching First Dates.

urban gypsy

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 3:01 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

And we watch movies and read secular books but I've learned that that is not good for your neshama and that you need to strive to go more spiritual and there is my problem.

This is also very emphasized in Chabad and I have a lot of issues because I've internalized so much shame over movies and books which are a huge part of my life. You can watch movies, read books and still be frum, I promise you. Be yourself. Don't feel pressured to throw away parts of yourself to fit someone else's definition of being frum.

singleagain

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 3:01 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Quote:

Growing as a BT or ger is a difficult path, don't make it harder for yourself than it needs to be. Every traveler needs a reliable road map.

In response to the bolded at the bottom.

Absolutely no! No you do not have to let go of anything secular that you do not want to. I truly believe that you can elevate anything secular. And furthermore, there is wisdom among the nations. Sometimes, I find that a secular idea can help me spiritually grow. I have learned so many lessons from movies and television.

Amalia

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 3:10 pm

Dear OP,

If I understand correctly you are in Europe. There are a number of ladies here from Europe, who are very level-headed and knowledgeable. I highly suggest that you contact them, perhaps via pm and ask for guidance. In particular, I am thinking of Raisin and Ruchel, although I am sure there are others, too.

In addition, I think you should consider taking up urbangypsy on her offer - her post is above.

What is your first/native language? Maybe there are people on this site who know it.

Also, there is a private forum here for Baalei Teshuva and Geirim, although it’s pretty quiet usually.

Amalia

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 3:14 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Same here. Also from the time when I was part of Chabad (OOT) community. I have struggled with it for years, before I realized that I can’t throw out my personality, and my identity, and my personal history and background away. But I still feel guilty and ashamed about it.

Ema of 5

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 3:14 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Yes. And it's also something that we should keep private. But sometimes, especially if it helps stem an uncomfortable conversation, we can bring it up. And we have to know for ourselves that we've never quite arrived. (Of course we should endorse ourselves for the results of hard work and convictions. But we can't be complacent.)

I know this is off topic, but why does personal growth need to be kept private?

Iymnok

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 3:16 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

It was written by R' Shneur Zalman, the first Chabad Rebbe and Baal hatanya. Lubavitch will accept any psak in there over anything else (except his siddur, there are a couple differences)

urban gypsy

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 3:23 pm

Amalia wrote:

BIG EXHALE wow finally another person who understands me and what I've been through!
I feel exactly the same and agree with every single word you wrote here.

On the outside, Chabad looks super friendly, modern and inclusive, but that's a calculated image to attract BT's. Once you cross the rubicon and become an "insider" the rules change really abruptly and you realize you're stuck in something that you didn't sign up for.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 4:36 pm

Ema of 4 wrote:

I know this is off topic, but why does personal growth need to be kept private?

Not everything, and not from everyone. For example, it's great for family, especially kids, to know that you're working on things. But there's also a value in keeping something, again, not everything but something, absolutely private, just between you and Hashem.
And some people might misconstrue what others say as bragging or condescending. YMMV and you have to know your customers.

Oh, and from a mussar view, if you keep things private then you know there's that much less gaavah involved.

zaq

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:20 pm

DrMom wrote:

By definition, how can you not be at your level?

These people commenting about your "level" (seems to be a measure of chumrot and not halchot) sound very intrusive.

What they mean is "You're not at MY level"...and they add the "yet" so that they sound a mite less holier-than-thou.

ITA about commenting about "levels", which is an automatic value judgment unless you're in a department-store elevator. (Level 4: Menswear. Going up. Next level, housewares. Watch the closing doors. Beeeep.)

behappy2

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 7:28 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

[u]

I think the bolded is tricky because it seems hashem wants different things from different communities which is somewhat difficult to accept. If you're a chassidish woman then hashem doesn't want you driving. He also doesn't want you to stop having babies unless you get permission from your rav. If you're a modern woman then hashem is ok with you going to movies and wearing a skirt a little above the knee. He's also ok with you not having children until you finish graduate school at age 30. After that, he's fine with you having 3 kids so you can afford to live in a nice house. No need to ask a rav for permission.

I don't agree with even one word that you wrote.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 7:37 pm

behappy2 wrote:

I don't agree with even one word that you wrote.

In what way?

behappy2

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 7:57 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

In what way?

I don't think Hashes is happy that Chassidish woman don't drive. The only thing he is happy with is the mesiras nefesh of these woman who want their kids in a good school.

If a person can't handle having another child and their Rav paskens to have anyways then please find another Rav who understands you.

If a MO woman wants to have children before the age of 30 or wear skirts that cover her knees Hashem will be very pleased. Of course given her background he may not judge her if she doesn't but growth in spirituality is a good thing when done right.

I know I may be coming across as narrow minded and judgemental. I think I get your point but the examples weren't the best.

Hashem wants us to do the next best thing and do things that are in line with our emotional and physical health. What's right for one person isn't necessarily right for the next. If that was your point than I agree with you.