You are not on your level yet?

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 8:05 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

BIG EXHALE wow finally another person who understands me and what I've been through!
I feel exactly the same and agree with every single word you wrote here.

On the outside, Chabad looks super friendly, modern and inclusive, but that's a calculated image to attract BT's. Once you cross the rubicon and become an "insider" the rules change really abruptly and you realize you're stuck in something that you didn't sign up for.

Ouch. As a daughter of baalei tshuva, a wife of a Baal tshuva and a very proud Lubavitcher, I'm sorry you had that experience. It's far from the norm

amother

Orchid

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 10:33 pm

It sounds like you don't have a lot of religious options, and that's difficult for someone trying to find her place. From what you are saying, you might do well in a Modern Orthodox place that values secular learning. I'm sorry I don't know anything about the community in Holland and can't offer advice. However, if someday you have kids, you're going to need appropriate schools. It might be time to look into moving.

simba

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 11:05 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I am sorry this has been your experience. I’m surprised as this is not the Chabad I know. Can you elaborate?

How do you feel Chabad is misrepresenting itself to potential BT’s?

amother

Hotpink

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 11:13 pm

In chabad we are taught according to chassidus that movies ,secular book's, non Jewish music is not good for our neshamas.I feel bad that you feel guilty for doing these above mention stuff but realise that because you understand the reason why we say its bad for the neshamah that's why you feel guilty.just like if I would if I do the above mentioned things . Its our neshamas talking to us. Now you have to realize the deference between what's halacha , chumra, minhag and whats best for your neshama .therefor if watching a movie is going to make you so resentful about yiddishkeit oblivious its better to watch a movie and then be happy to keep shabbos , kosher etc.same with covering you hair and all the rest.the rebbe never told us to push anyone.and make people feel guilty .anyone who feels guilty is because they know the truth and still listing to the yatzire harah.sorry to be blunt , but don't knock chabad, because its hard to do things that you understand is not the best for you.they say ignorance is bliss ,its true . Sometimes I wish I could enjoy a movie or a book too but I can't ( I tried ) that's life. Our gains we will see when moshiach comes.

yerushamama

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 12:46 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I'm going to address a few comments up thread, but I'm too tired right now to quote all of them.

Halachah is NOT different for different groups. Halacha is halacha, period. Minhagim and chumrot are different for different groups. If you connect with a specific group, then you take on the extras. If you don't connect with that group, it doesn't make you less frum. A "just plain frum" Modern Orthodox person who keeps the mitzvot is just as frum as a chassidish lady who shaves her head, maybe even more!

The madregot you should be working on is middos. If you are always working on improving middos, avoiding lashon hara, and practicing Ahavas Isroel, you can't go wrong. You do not need extra thick stockings for that.

I strongly recommend you find ONE group that resonates with you, and a rav who you can connect with on both a halachic and emotional level. You need consistent guidance from a single source, so you're not getting confused with conflicting opinions.

Growing as a BT or ger is a difficult path, don't make it harder for yourself than it needs to be. Every traveler needs a reliable road map.

This is close enough to what I was planning on saying that I strongly second it. Take on chumros ONLY as you feel comfortable doing so, and with proper guidance. DO NOT strive to take on minhagim and chumros that are not part of your community!

Someone (other than your Rav or Rebbitzen saying "you aren't yet on that level" sounds very pompous, but I'll be dlkz that it was meant in a nice way. Just do as other posters have suggested - say something along the lines of "I"m holding where I'm holding" and let it go.

amother

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 5:36 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

But saying that makes me very uncomfortable and gives me a stress. Is this what judaism is? Is this what yiddishkeit is, or can you also being close to hashem in a different way?

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 6:04 am

Stress is never good .but if a jew does something that is not inline with their neshamah.there will be some natural stress .or not happiness or not right feeling that's what happens to me .and I think that's what makes people become b.t. or stay frum.but again if the stress is causing you to resent yiddishkeit . Its better to say to yourself that your watching the movie.as a relaxation or any other reason in order to do mitsvos with joy( unless according to halacha the movie is not allowed to be watched ) no one is perfect therefore you have to realize that since we regular people are never going to be perfect we choose which areas in yiddishkeit we can keep and still serve hashem with joy.everyone has their own inner balance and struggles.

amother

Lemon

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 8:11 am

yerushamama wrote:

1. No one in Chabad is explaining what is chumra and what is halacha. They just tell you “this is how done by us” and no one tells you the other options.
2 . She wasn’t feeling guilty before they explained her that this is wrong . It’s not her neshama talking , it’s the influence of others . So many cases when people where feeling guilty about doing perfectly allowed and even good things just because someone told them that it’s not “spiritual” or “not allowed” or “not healthy “ . So many christians feel guilty even to think about relations with their spouses because for them any relations is sinful .

urban gypsy

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 10:26 am

simba wrote:

How do you feel Chabad is misrepresenting itself to potential BT’s?

My intention is not to engage in Chabad-bashing and I don't have the emotional bandwith for a rational discussion about this. I will just say that there is a different set of rules for "mekuravim" who are members/donors to the shul and BT's who become part of the insider's circle. Differences in behaviour and observance regarding what is considered acceptable. I understand the reason for this, but the hypocrisy of two "castes" in Chabad just killed me inside.

One obvious difference is the approach towards secular education... for the newbies, they tell you a bunch of stories about how the Rebbe attended university and wrote a bunch of papers about physics and chemistry. For the children of BT's, you learn the sicha that sending a child to secular studies is the same as Pharoah throwing the babies into the Nile. For a more detailed description of this mechalech you can refer to hotpink's post above.

amother

Lemon

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 10:31 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

I will be surprised if No one told her the difference .but I can't say for sure.and no sorry I think every frum and I mean frum person beliefs that we have a yatzire harah and yatzire tov that tells us to do good or bad .and if we listen to our yztzire hara we won't feel good.

I have experience with Chabad Kiruv . They tell you what to do and what Halacha is according to them . My friend asked the rebetzin if one is allowed to eat cholov stam . In my presence. The rebetzin anwered - no, only cholov Yisroel , it’s basic and unchangeable Halacha. My friend said that she knows many frum jews who eat cholov stam , the answer was - “no, it’s not kosher” .

You know , so many Jews are not feeling anything bad eating bacon and smoking on Shabbat before they are told that it’s not done .
Why so many women on this forum we’re feeling bad when doing things with their husbands before knowing that they are allowed to do it ? It’s not their yatzire harah , it’s just they were told that’s it assur.
Yes, I believe in yatzire harah but not on the things that not mentioned in the Torah and totally allowed by other sects of Judaism.

urban gypsy

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 10:36 am

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

1. No one in Chabad is explaining what is chumra and what is halacha. They just tell you “this is how done by us” and no one tells you the other options.

Exactly. Obviously Chabad believes what they believe and it doesn't make any sense to expect them to teach their chassidim about other minhagim. But there is a certain rigidity to their approach, and much of their group identity manifests in doing things differently (ie. better) than other groups.

If you don't subscribe to their chumros then you will never really be accepted by the group. Israeli_C posts a lot about her experiences with this and people always tell her to chill out, it's just a minhag, calm down. But that's not the lived experience for many people in this community. And because Chabad is prides itself on being so "open minded" you get taken by surprise by that in a way that you wouldn't in one of the more closed Chassidic groups.

The BY high school that I went to taught us halacha in depth and we were expected to learn several different rulings for every halacha (ie. Ashkenaz, Sefardi, Chassidish, etc) which is confusing and complicated, but deeply instilled in us the differences between halacha and chumra/minhag, and the validity of different viewpoints. In Chabad there is a degree of insularity and holier-than-thou attitude that I haven't seen elsewhere.

Lemon would you mind PM'ing me if you feel comfortable?

Israeli_C

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 10:41 am

Just my 2 cents - the issues I post about are 99% due to me being a giyoret (nothing to rely on in terms of family minhagim etc - basically winging it Judaically) and DH going overboard at times (highly motivated, at times overly enthusiastic baal tshuva).

Chabad is wonderful. I'm pretty sure that if the Rebbe saw what was happening in my house at times, he'd shake his head.

urban gypsy

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 10:48 am

Israeli_C wrote:

Hi Israeli_C! Sorry to drag you into this, I hope you don't mind TMI

I would argue that the issues that you attribute to being a giyoret (no family minhagim, winging it Judaically) are exactly the same for many BTs
Furthermore, Chabad does not encourage keeping your family minhagim
If you want to be Chabad, you must switch over to their minhagim
Another example would be not eating gebrokets on Pesach. It doesn't matter if your family has eaten them for generations. Chabad treats gebrokets on Pesach as chametz.

amother

Lemon

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 10:55 am

Israeli_C wrote:

Chabad is wonderful. I'm pretty sure that if the Rebbe saw what was happening in my house at times, he'd shake his head.

Yes, I agree about the Rebbe and that Chabad is wonderful in what they do with the secular Jews. And with their shluchim all over the world. I am really grateful for all of that . But after the initial introduction to Judaism , for the long term, I think BT should research other options and opinions too . And find what is better for them .
I have friends who started with Chabad but moved to modern Orthodox or Litvish . They all love and appreciate and grateful to their Chabad rabbi but moved on. Nothing wrong with that .

Israeli_C

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 11:01 am

urban gypsy wrote:

Hi Israeli_C! Sorry to drag you into this, I hope you don't mind TMI

But we CHOSE to be chabad and take upon ourselves their minhagim (well, DH did, but aishto k'gufo). I later 'chose' to be chabad on my own when I forged my own unique love of the chassidus- the mesiras nefesh of shluchim, the strong emphasis on ahavas Yisroel, the stories of bravery and endurance in the USSR, the importance of education - for everyone, particularly women and children, the niggunim, the warm feeling when I see a duchan tefillin set up in the heart of secular Israeli cities.... I could go on.

I don't think it's right for people to paint themselves as the 'innocent victims of chabad outreach'. Most of them wouldn't be here to complain if it wasn't for chabad caring about them and bringing them in. You won't hear anyone complaining about Satmar outreach or Gur outreach gone wrong because quite frankly if you're not frum and in their circles, they're not interested in you.

At the end of the day, we're all adults and BH we're all able to read. If chabad minhagim rub you up the wrong way, read up about it. Ask questions. Chabadnikim don't shy away from those who are curious and want to learn more. There will always be those who, for all their good intentions, do more harm than good. I've met them. Thankfully I've seen enough of the good and learned enough about what chabad really is to get a handle on my Yiddishkeit.

amother

Puce

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 11:09 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Erm, what? There are absolutely different interpretations of basic, bottom line halacha among different groups. No, I don't mean chumra I mean mutar or assur. A very straightforward example of this is Ashkenazi vs sefardi, where there are some completely opposing halachic viewpoints.

urban gypsy

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 11:09 am

Israeli_C wrote:

There will always be those who, for all their good intentions, do more harm than good. I've met them. Thankfully I've seen enough of the good and learned enough about what chabad really is to get a handle on my Yiddishkeit.

Of course you are right. You don't need to defend Chabad to me. I am aware of all their maalos and I still daven in a Chabad shul because that's where my friends are. I believe that bad things don't cancel out the good things, and good things don't cancel out the bad things. Again, my intent is not to engage in Chabad-bashing.

I am responding solely to OP's question about how to process the pressure from a religious leader insisting that "you are not on your level yet," and how that plays out in the Chabad community specifically, because I've been through that experience and can offer some insight. In general I believe people evolve over the course of a lifetime and sometimes that involves moving to a different community that suits you better.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Jul 03 2019, 11:09 am

As a proud Lubavitcher, shlucha, BY graduate too, I’m surprised and saddened by some of what was shared.
(My litvish Halacha teacher was not too good at quoting or respecting other shitos in Halacha and minhag . maybe it’s about the individuals and not the derech)
Either way, OP is hurting and let’s try to help her rather than descend into Chabad-bashing especially as this Shabbos is Gimmel Tammuz (25 years since Rebbes histalkus).

About levels, I think in life we are always working on ourselves, whether in areas of halacha, middos (having kids is great for that!), performance of chesed, other mitzvos, Torah learning, davening, take your pick. If we’d accomplished all we were meant to do in this world already then....

OP, I feel for you if you feel you’re getting unkind comments.
I’m not sure I understand the comments you’re receiving or how they’re reasonable. The word ‘level’ has me confused. Who determines what is the right ‘level’?
Maybe you need to find a good guide for yourself who can help you sort Halacha from minhag and teach you from sources so you can feel comfortable in your choices.

Anon because I’ve shared too much about myself.