Open Minded to less frum... and more??

urban gypsy

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:15 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

I wonder how all our grandparents ate their vegetables without their pocket lightbox.

Seriously. I don't know how to explain this politely but.... checking with a lightbox is a good idea, but clean unchecked vegetables are not treif. And the fact that kosher restaurants wash vegetables with dish soap is so disgusting and I'd rather just not think about that.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:17 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

I wonder how all our grandparents ate their vegetables without their pocket lightbox.

This comment is a perfect example of judging...
I don't know what our grandparents did- perhaps they didn't have access to these vegetables, perhaps bugs were less common, or who knows what- but I follow my rabbonim and my kashrus guidelines. I downloaded the CRC app and follow that. I do not impose on any relatives; I eat in their homes and do not ask them to make special purchases for me, I just know what to avoid. I mention restaurants in a polite, tactful way, so that we can all have the opportunity to enjoy. I am nothing but respectful and I expect the same courtesy to be extended to me.
Luckily my relatives are accommodating, not judgy.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:19 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Bugs are treif. You can follow your own rav's guidelines but I am entitled to follow mine. You can't force me to eat something that might well contain bugs.
Like I said, I am kind and respectful. I never comment on the clothing, food choices, shabbos activities of my friends and relatives. I expect the same courtesy to be extended to me (and it is; I am blessed with nice friends and family).

urban gypsy

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:20 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Actually YOU are the one who wrote, "vegetables and herbs require washing with soap or other wash, and/ or checking by a special or natural light"

If you wanted to avoid being "judgy" then you could have said, "CRC guidelines are as follows for those who hold by them"

amother

Peach

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:20 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

You sound lovely.
Are they accommodating because you got lucky or because you are a mensch and treat them respectfully?

(I am not being sarcastic-I genuinely feel the problem is respect or the lack there of)

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:25 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

Nobody is forcing you to eat bugs and I recognize that the man in this example did not want to eat the salad. I was just mentioning that some people who keep kosher might have done.

Good for those "some people." Obviously the woman in the story chose to eat there. But if I was in this man's place, if I hadn't been able to get the venue changed beforehand in a tactful kind manner, I'd very possibly be stuck with water or soda...

urban gypsy

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:26 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

The person choosing the restaurant is making a clear statement "I don't accept that your standards reflect a correct interpretation of kashrut." But the person sipping water is making a clear statement that "I don't accept that your standards reflect a correct interpretation of kashrut.

I think it makes a big difference whether the restaurant has a kosher certification or not. If it's MacDonald's, then the relatives are being a bit unreasonable expecting the frum person to eat there. If it's a kosher restaurant with a hashgacha he doesn't hold by, surely he can choose something acceptable to eat, even if it's fruit or something

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:26 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I should have written, "my husband and Rav, and the crc guidlines I follow, require..."
Please excuse my error of omission.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:28 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

If there was fruit, I agree that's a good idea. But many restaurants don't offer fresh fruit. Also, if this was in Israel, that could pose another problem with shemittah; we had that issue. (I'm not saying This was the case, j am just mentioning possibilities.)

byisrael

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:31 pm

When said relative organized this and s/o else in the family who actually doesn't keep kosher mentioned that there is a great resturant with a hechsher my brother would eat in across the street, the relative organizing said that we aren't going to change the venue for one person.

The rest of us where happy to change - but she didn't want to, and then she got insulted.

Sorry I don't get it - I think people like this have a chip on thier shoulder, are not fully confident in what they are doing feel threatand by people doing more then they are.

They percieve the more as saying that they are less then, when in actuallity it's usually relaying on different poskim, rishonim, and achronim

. My brother always says that all orthodox opinions are halichically acceptable, he sets his standards by his personal understanding of the sugyas when he learnt them and then relaying on what his rabbanim have to say about. Doesn't mean other opinions are less valid - but his way of life is valid.

I have different standards then he does(don't keep half the chumras he does) but I respect his way of life as just as valid as mine, and I don't think my rabbanim a less then his.

Why is this so difficult for so many people?

urban gypsy

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:34 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Please excuse my error of omission.

More like a Freudian slip but ok....
That's the whole point of the thread!
Yes it's okay to uphold your standards, no it's not okay to believe that other people are eating treif when they aren't
In 12th grade a very frum friend offered the daughter of the Rav teaching the class a chalav stam cookie and his daughter accidentally said "that's not kosher for me" without thinking
HE LAID INTO HER LIKE YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE in front of everyone and made it very clear that kind of attitude is NOT OK and obviously he and his family kept Chalav Yisrael

amother

Linen

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:35 pm

byisrael wrote:

I think there gets to a point where people tire from having to arrange plans to satisfy those with the most stringencies.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:37 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I agree.
But I also agree that it's unfair to judge people for keeping different, perhaps stricter standards.

amother

Mint

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:39 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I agree. And even in McDonalds you could have drinks, fruit, non-CY but Kosher yoghurts or even salad.

urban gypsy

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:41 pm

byisrael wrote:

Thanks for clarifying. It's an interesting scenario. I see both sides. She could have many reasons for wanting to keep her choice: cost, menu, etc. She has the right to keep her choice but she can't demand that he eat there. I bet she was treated as "less than" many times in her life and it's naive to believe that all "ultra-Orthodox" people don't believe other opinions are invalid. Many people need to invalidate others in order to maintain their beliefs... that's part of human nature. She could have been accommodating but she chose not to, she is paying, and that's her prerogative. I bet if he had a gluten intolerance or peanut allergy she would have reacted with far more solicitude though.