Ethical Questions s/o from how much do you earn

miami85

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:44 pm

It might not be "milking" if people are willing to pay that much. In America we have a Capitalist economy and competition is the name of the game. If you are THAT good at what you do, and people are willing to pay you then it's not "taking advantage"--it's what you are worth. There are halachos about how much mark-up you are allowed to charge without it being ona'as devarim but, if you are otherwise SO busy and need a way to pair down your clientele, then that's a fair way to do it.

amother

Ginger

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:49 pm

Op, maybe doing date is faster and simpler than for a wedding. Also there are less expectations. U was pissed that the haircut lady for my kids charges flat fee for haircuts and 1/4 price for bangs. My child has no hair it took her faster for haircut than bangs for person before. I felt a bit cheated.

Certain professions that require degree, skill years of not getting paid, loans, should charge what they are worth. But they should offer discounts for clients who come steady cause honesty its easier for them not do have to deal with new client appointment scedules and get to know them. (Thinking about therapists mostly)

amother

Papaya

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:50 pm

Some jobs a lot of time goes in besides patient. See patient. Notes. Bill insurance. Research.

Someone on here in a specilized business with little training and no degree was defending her rates. She described the number of hours speaking to prospective clients. Answering sessions. For each actual hour session she’d spend many hours on average with this client or clients that never booked.
So the hourly rate has to cover all the hours not worked.

allthingsblue

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:55 pm

In terms of therapy- it would be nice if we had more qualified kind generous souls who could take insurance or offer lower rates.

In terms of makeup, hair, sheitels- if we keep giving in, prices will go up. They have the right. We have the right to decide not to patronize them with these prices. We can vote with our wallets.

Tuition goes up every year too... seems to be the crazy way of the world

Last edited by allthingsblue on Thu, Oct 31 2019, 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Pink

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 1:01 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Could it be some of those kind generous souls already exist and are working for agencies, but people turn up their noses at them because they only want the best of the best?

Also, therapy is hard, grueling work. People get burnt out if they have to deal with financial stress on top of that.

allthingsblue

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 1:16 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

Yes I'm 100% sure this is the case. There are certainly kind and talented people in clinics.

amother

Brown

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 1:35 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

After or before the service is performed?

Before. They charge one price for someone else and will raise their prices for me. I had a party planner that was charging $1000. When I spoke with her, she wanted $6000 for the same type of party. When I protested, she said that I can afford it.

We had the same thing with painters. DH got one quote for per diem work. Their per diem went up when they saw our house.

We have had this several times with the trades.

amother

Green

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 1:43 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

I do freelance writing and editing. It's not my primary job or source of parnassa, it's something I do on the side, but it can bring in a nice income when I really need it.

My rates are very flexible. It really depends on the job, how complicated it looks, how busy I am and whether it's for a cause I care about. In that case if it's a simple job I may even do it for free. For example I often get asked to look over a letter and suggest edits. If the letter basically looks fine I may charge $10 or not at all.

Anyone who doesn't want to use me or feels my rates are too high is free to find someone else. If they have a very short deadline (I need this 30 page brochure edited by tomorrow!!) it's going to cost more.

Wow. I had to triple-check that I didn't write this! That's exactly how I work.

ETA, to clarify: I have a set system for calculating how much to charge, but it's complicated and depends on several factors - not exactly if I like or don't like the subject matter, but based on size, scope, urgency, number of contacts (which also turns into number of critics), complexity, etc. It's pretty much impossible to come up with a per-hour rate, especially because I tend to work on several projects at a time, so it's hard to keep track of hours spent.

Nobody's complained, and I have a lot of return clients as well as referrals. My rates are fair for the quality of the service I provide. (I once had a client go with a different writer when my quote was too high, and then come back a few weeks later because the quality of the second writer's product was subpar. People are willing to pay for quality writing.)

amother

Orange

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 2:01 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

I'm a therapist. I have specialized training in an area that is in high demand. I'm really good at what I do, and I really love doing it. I spend the bulk of my working hours in a clinic, where many of my client's can access my services for free or for a minimal fee. I also have a small, fully booked private practice. Privately, I charge 200$ per 45 min session.

I could easily leave the clinic and work exclusively in my private practice. I would be filled up quickly; I have a wait list that is over a year long and I turn away several clients each month because I'm booked. I don't do it because I'd like to be able to help whoever needs the service I have to offer, not just the uber-rich. I could also charge 300 or even 350$ a session. I don't do it because I can't stomach charging more than I myself could afford, if it was my loved one who needed the help.

But

Eventually, I will leave the clinic. I have my own family to support, and my expenses keep rising. Eventually, I will raise my rates for the same reason. So far, year after year, I've been able to avoid doing it. But eventually I know the pressure will get great enough and I'll cave in. Is it ethical? I don't know.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 2:05 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

I hope you get your house painted!

ora_43

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 2:13 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

For example, two people might contact me with rush jobs at different times, and I still may give them a different rate. Why? One is a science paper where I need to do a significant amount of research in order to edit and proofread well, whereas the other one is a research paper about some topic that I already understand well, and it won't take any extra work on my part.

In other words, I charge by the project based on the amount of labor I invest. That is extremely variable.

Right. That's charging different prices for different jobs. I don't think any reasonable client would be upset to hear "I charged you more because it was a more time-intensive project that required me to do more research."

I was talking about charging different prices for different people, where the only honest explanation would be something like, "I didn't actually feel like working that night" or "you said you had to submit within a week, so I figured you were desperate enough to pay extra." (and like I said, I don't think that's exactly unethical - at least the first isn't, not sure about the second - just not a great way to get repeat business)

ora_43

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 2:22 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

The difference is that addiction treatment is never short term. It is long term. Years. And the people stuck in addiction usually have lives that are overturned- wrecked. Often it's the wives who are struggling desperately to cover the family financially. So people go into massive debt to cover treatment, because of desperation. And the partners/families suffer even more when the fees are astronomical because all of the family's finances are going to help the addict. And this is for years. And the family stress and burden on the partner increases even more when therapy fees are astronomical. So a therapist who specializes in this, knows the typical family struggles in addiction, knows there are a very limited number of providers in the field altogether, knows the number of frum providers is minimal, takes advantage of that and uses the clients to enrich himself past the point of what is reasonable and standard in the field- that is where I think it crosses the line.

But high prices are reasonable and standard in the field. Even someone charging $400/hour could be well within market rates.

IMO - it's true that families can't and shouldn't have to pay for it all themselves. But it should be the community pitching in, not just the therapist. Like - the therapist shouldn't be getting extremely rich off of desperate people, but it's very reasonable for them to earn enough to live a comfortable lifestyle (which, in their case, includes paying overhead, paying off student debt...). And if their clients can't afford their prices, then community tzedaka funds should be used.

(The real problem isn't with any individual therapist, it's with the whole system keeping the number of trained therapists low.)

amother

Oak

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 2:35 pm

People don't understand how high taxes are when you're self-employed either. They hear a number and think it's all going to you, when a huge chunk is going to taxes, then a huge chunk is going to operating expenses, as well as the cost of continuing ed to stay on top of advances in the field. Conferences in my field are around $300/day, not counting airfare, hotels, and food.

Regarding the crazy high rates a few people charge: I think of those as more of consult positions. I may be wrong but I don't think families are going to them for regular sessions for months and years? A friend of mine is a very in-demand LCSW who works part-time in a clinic and has a very lucrative private practice as well. She regularly provides consult services to families who want sort of a "second opinion" and someone to talk with their regular therapists to make sure the approach they're using is the most efficacious. I think that's a sustainable and fair model. I also provide some consult services in my practice. Sometimes people just need an expert to tell them what to do and then they can find the right people (more affordable) who can help them learn to do it.

amother

Pink

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 2:47 pm

ora_43 wrote:

When you do freelance work, clients understand that you have your own life and schedule and may not be available. What will happen is, I'll say "No, I'm really sorry, I'm swamped right now. " And they'll say, "Please, please, I really need this tonight, I can pay you up to $xxx." And then it's up to me to decide if the extra money is worth it. Or I decide it's important to keep this customer happy. It's not like I have set hours when I'm open for business and it's first come first serve. I choose which jobs I want to take. (That's how I get jobs BTW--because my other writer friends turned down a job and passed it on to me. It's important for me to keep THEM happy too.)

amother

Bisque

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 3:23 pm

ora_43 wrote:

$400 a session is completely not within market rates in the NYC area, which generally has higher prices for therapy. And I'm talking about Manhattan, where rents are higher and therapists charge $$$.

The rates I have paid for highly experienced and skilled professionals range from 170-300

It is a real shame when frum therapists gouge their clients financially and for community tzedaka funds to have to go to support therapists in a high lifestyle.

And often the services provided by many of these people are second rate. Which kind of adds to the wrongness of the whole situation- bad therapists scamming vulnerable people for obscene amounts of money

tigerwife

Thu, Oct 31 2019, 3:40 pm

I see absolutely nothing wrong with charging whatever you want for services like hair, makeup, photography, etc.

These are luxury services. You at not obligated to choose the most professional and expensive service. There are always beginners who will charge less and can also do a great job.

I really don’t understand the complaint. Why can’t someone make more money if they are talented and successful? They have mouths to feed, too, and their success usually comes from a huge investment of time and energy. At some point it needs to be worth it.

Just because all your neighbors use a luxury family photographer every season, doesn’t mean it isn’t fair that you also cannot afford to do so. We don’t live in a communist regime.

It’s beautiful if someone chooses to charge less so that she can help her community. But call it what it is- a chesed. She is donating time to you instead of money.