Discussion on the Daf - Brachot

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amother

Mustard

Sun, Feb 09 2020, 8:59 pm

malki2 wrote:

Because people plant palm trees for the dates, not for the hearts.

A similar case would be pumpkin seeds. Most pumpkins are planted for the seeds, so the seeds are ha’adamah. If they would be planted for the pumpkins, the seeds would be shehakol.

Interesting - I just heard that R’ Shlomo Zalman held that the correct bracha on chocolate is Borei pri ha’eitz - since the chocolate is ultimate/final state of the cacao beans and the reason the trees are planted/cultivated. I’ve never heard of anyone actually saying Borei pri ha’eitz, rather than She’hakol on chocolate, though . . .

naturalmom5

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 10:43 am

Brochos 39

Lets keeps things moving here Very Happy

The Poskim who hold that beryah is generated from
chashivus / If concerning marror beryah helps in place of
the shiur k’zayis

- מג "א, מחצית השקל -

However, it is clear both from the Magen Avraham and the
Machatzis Hashekel that they explain the din of beryah
differently from the Tosafos discussing beryah by forbidden foods.
Rather, they hold like Rashi and Rabbeinu Chananel who explained
beryah has the same status as a k’zayis because of logical reasoning.
They wrote that it is the chashivus of a beryah that puts it on the
same level as a k’zayis.
We see this from where the Magen Avraham discusses why by
the mitzvas achilas marror on Pesach there is a need for one to eat
a full k’zayis. This din applies even where one ate a full beryah. The
Magen Avraham writes that the reason it is not possible to apply the
din beryah from birchos hanehenin is because by marror one does
not fulfill his obligation through eating the roots. The Machatzis
Hashekel explains his intention to be that since one doesn’t fulfill
his obligation with the roots it then actually becomes assur to eat
them. To eat the roots would cause the optional roots to come and
uproot the marror of the mitzvah. This is an application the din found
in Pesachim that if one eats an optional food together with a
mitzvah food, the optional food then uproots that of the mitzvah. As
a result, it comes out we are forced to remove the roots. That is why
the marror cannot be called a beryah.
It is clear from these Poskim that if we just took into account the
rules of beryah it would be possible to include marror asell. It is
because of this possibility that the Magen Avraham saw necessary to
give a reason for marror’s exclusion from the din.

To make it simpler if you eat a very small olive or one grape do you make an
Al Ha aitz after brocha

malki2

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 10:46 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

Brochos 39

Lets keeps things moving here Very Happy

Thanks. This is actually a big shayla, and there are righteous people who will refrain from eating a single complete berya which would put them in a safeik. Such as an almond or a grape.

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:45 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

BTW - If you check the Leaderboard now, I’m on it now as “Sky.”

https://kahoot.it/challenge/4b.....=U2t5

Probably won’t last long, though, because even though I got all the answers correct, I generally don’t play video games, and I’m not fast enough. . . Anyway, it’s a fun review and a good way to keep on track . . .

Saw you up there - go you! Queen

I signed up for the emails and the whatsapps but I can't see where the link to the kahoot quizzes are. I just did one of the grand pop quizzes though and got 5 or 6 wrong out of 63, so 90% Hooray

Need to keep practicing to retain it.

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 11:47 am

malki2 wrote:

Thanks. This is actually a big shayla, and there are righteous people who will refrain from eating a single complete berya which would put them in a safeik. Such as an almond or a grape.

If I bite it in half and eat it in two mouthfuls, does this remove the shaila?

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:13 pm

More thoughts about the Shmuel/Eli sugya.

Brachot 31
המורה הלכה לפני רבו חייב מיתה ו
Chana pleads for Shmuel's life to be saved.

Brachot 37
ונתן רבן גמליאל רשות לר' עקיבא לברך קפץ וברך רבי עקיבא ברכה אחת מעין שלש אמר ליה רבן גמליאל עקיבא עד מתי אתה מכניס ראשך בין המחלוקת א"ל רבינו אע"פ שאתה אומר כן וחבריך אומרים כן למדתנו רבינו יחיד ורבים הלכה כרבים

R Akiva is rebuked, defends himself from rebuke, no other consequence recorded.

Brachot 39
נתן בר קפרא רשות לאחד מהן לברך קפץ וברך על הפרגיות
....
ואמר אם חכמה אין כאן זקנה אין כאן תנא ושניהם לא הוציאו שנתן

Same language of קפץ וברך in front of his rebbe. Is rebuked, dies within the year.

So in short: צריך עיון.

malki2

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:21 pm

Aylat wrote:

If I bite it in half and eat it in two mouthfuls, does this remove the shaila?

I don’t think so. Unless you would wait the shiur for אכילה like if someone had to eat less than a shiur on Yom Kippur.

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:24 pm

Brachot 39
תני תנא קמיה דרב נחמן בר יצחק מניח הפרוסה בתוך השלמה ובוצע ומברך אמר ליה מה שמך א"ל שלמן א"ל שלום אתה ושלמה משנתך ששמת שלום בין התלמידים
Praised for making an effort to fulfil both opinions.

Brachot 11
אמרו לו כדאי היית לחוב בעצמך שעברת על דברי ב"ה
Whereas he is strongly criticised for trying to fulfil both Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai.

Brachot 37
אורז מין דגן הוא וחייבין על חמוצו כרת ואדם יוצא בו ידי חובתו בפסח
An איסור כרת and we are not חושש for this opinion at all.

What determines each case?

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:25 pm

malki2 wrote:

I don’t think so. Unless you would wait the shiur for אכילה like if someone had to eat less than a shiur on Yom Kippur.

Do you have a source?

What's counted as a בריה? An orange segment or a whole orange?

malki2

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:39 pm

Aylat wrote:

Do you have a source?

What's counted as a בריה? An orange segment or a whole orange?

I don’t have a source. I think that it’s just the concept of eating a בריה. I don’t think the method of eating it makes a difference.

DH told me that הרב בנציון אבא שאול זצ”ל even held that the tiny orange pieces that compose each segment are considered a בריה. So for sure a segment would be a בריה.

naturalmom5

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 12:54 pm

Aylat wrote:

If I bite it in half and eat it in two mouthfuls, does this remove the shaila?

Not if you eat it in shiur cdai achilas peras ( between 2 and 9 minutes )

Another good question

What if I eat half a grape then eat half of a different grape

I don't have a berya or a shiur cazais

naturalmom5

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 1:04 pm

If the din beryah for a bracha acharonah applies specifically to the
shivas haminnim or even to other foods as well

- פני יהושע, מגן אברהם -

The Pnei Yehoshua also explains like the Rosh Yosef that the limud of beryah is
learnt out from the pasuk of “Gefen, te’einah etc.” Additionally, he points out that there
is reason to believe the Yerushalmi’s din concerning beryah by birchos hanehenin is
specific to the shivas haminnim. This can be inferred from how the Yerushalmi
specifically discusses grapes, pomegranates, and olives which are all part of the shivas
haminnim. We can understand this by saying the chashivus of beryah is only applicable
to the shivas haminnim because of their elevated status inasmuch as they have their own
unique bracha acharonah (the birchos may’ein shalosh). There are those who say this
bracha is m’doraisa and even for those who hold it is merely m’drabbanan nevertheless
it is supported through the pasuk of “Eretz chitah u’se’orah gefen v’te’einah v’rimon”.
As a result from the singular lashon by each min, that is why a beryah is chashuv when
even less than the shiur k’zayis.

However, concerning a food not from the shivas haminnim it is reasonable to say
the din of beryah is not applicable. There is no source for other minnim. Regarding the
din beryah by bittul issur b’rov the only things that are considered beryah’s are living
animals. This is seen clearly in the Shulchan Aruch . Additionally, from Makkos we
also see that only something with a neshama is considered to be a beryah, but not a
wheat kernel. And even according to the opinion that a wheat kernel is considered a
beryah, that is only with regards to tevel since even one kernel exempts a whole pile
from Terumah. As a result, we have no source from there to apply the din beryah at all
to birchos hanehenin. However, concerning the shivas haminnim they have their own
source. The lashon from the pasuk is sufficient to infer that the din beryah applies to
the shivas haminnim.

In truth, the Pnei Yehoshua does conclude that although this seems to be the reality,
nevertheless one needs to look into this as the din is not clear from the Poskim Rishonim
V’Acharonim to differentiate between a beryah from the shivas haminnim and one that
is not. However, he does write that his words would seem to make sense, and it is
possible it was from shamayim that he should have such thoughts.
Now, the Pnei Yehoshua commented that he didn’t find anything concerning his
own words from any of the Poskim. The truth is that there are Poskim who disagree with
his opinion and clearly apply the din beryah even to other foods. This can be seen from
the Magen Avraham and the Elyah Rabbah who write that one legume is granted
the status of a beryah. Legumes are not from the shivas haminnim. Additionally, after
bringing their words the Mishnah Berurah writes in the Shaar Hatzion b’shem the
Acharonim that the din beryah applies to small fish as well. From these Poskim it is clear
the din beryah even applies to foods that are not part of the shivas haminnim.
However, the truth is that they don’t necessarily contradict the ikar limud of the
Pnei Yehoshua from the pasuk of “Gefen te’einah v’rimon”. Although the Pnei Yehoshua
darshens this pasuk like Tosafos to be teaching us about the din beryah min hatorah,
it does not necessarily prevent from being able to understand how it can be applied to
other things as well. It is possible to say that once we learnt the din beryah by the shivas
haminnim the Chachamim then saw fit to apply it to all other brachos as well. It could
be they applied it even to foods not included in the shivas haminnim.

What comes out from all this is that both the Rosh Yosef and the Pnei Yehoshua
hold similarly to Tosafos that the din of beryah is learnt out specifically from the lashon
of the pasuk and not through logical reasoning.

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 1:45 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Not if you eat it in shiur cdai achilas peras ( between 2 and 9 minutes )

Another good question

What if I eat half a grape then eat half of a different grape

I don't have a berya or a shiur cazais

Ooh good question. I'd say no ברכה אחרונה.

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 2:38 pm

Brachot 39

A thought on קדימות in Brachot. The more specific, the more important. שהכל is the most general and the lowest level. Maybe this teaches us the importance of being precise. In a different context- parenting. A specific compliment is more meaningful to a kid than a general one. "I like the colours you chose to paint the flowers," instead of "your picture is beautiful!" (from How to Talk so Kids Will Listen etc) Zooming in on an aspect we admire shows the kid that we have taken the time to look and reflect on their creation. Ditto here, not just 'oh wow, Hashem made everything', but 'I am focusing on the wonder and wisdom of this specific aspect of creation'. Kind of like mindfulness.

malki2

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 3:20 pm

Aylat wrote:

Exactly what I thought. A thank you is so much more meaningful if you can specify what you are thanking the person for. Also thought that חביב takes precedence because when you appreciate what you are eating, it makes the ברכה more meaningful.

amother

Mustard

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 3:27 pm

Aylat wrote:

Saw you up there - go you! Queen

I signed up for the emails and the whatsapps but I can't see where the link to the kahoot quizzes are. I just did one of the grand pop quizzes though and got 5 or 6 wrong out of 63, so 90% Hooray

Need to keep practicing to retain it.

If you want to use the Kahoot! App, the game pin on the Kahoot App is 0971324.

It’s inherently motivating, so it’s a great way to keep up with chazzarah/practice. Smile

Aylat

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 5:30 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

If you want to use the Kahoot! App, the game pin on the Kahoot App is 0971324.

It’s inherently motivating, so it’s a great way to keep up with chazzarah/practice. Smile

Thanks, I'll give it a go!

amother

Mustard

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 5:39 pm

Aylat wrote:

Thanks, I'll give it a go!

. Go for it!

malki2

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 6:19 pm

Aylat wrote:

Where do you see that R Akiva is a talmid of Rabban Gamliel?

imorethanamother

Tue, Feb 11 2020, 10:10 pm

Aylat wrote:

So fascinating. I'm not an expert, but it looks like the difference in these situations is where you are in line. Bet Hillel and Bet Shammai were Tannaim, and it was already ruled by the Sanhedrim during that time that we follow Bet Hillel (with a few exceptions). So following Bet Shammai is disagreeing with a ruling set by Sanhedrim, who preceded the Amora discussed in Brachot 11.

Whereas R' Nachman Bar Yitzchok, as an Amora, tried to reconcile the two different views of two Tannaim.

In Berachos 37, R' Yochanan ben Nuri was the minority opinion of the Tannaim, and so Rav Huna was okay with saying we follow the majority opinion. Although you could argue that many of us sorta hold that eating rice IS chometz.

Is this answering your question? Or am I missing what you're saying?

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