Discussion on the Daf - Brachot

malki2

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 7:01 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Malki2, I have conceded that your general point is correct, because the sun is far from the earth and the sun is much larger than the earth. But if the sun were relatively close to earth, the earth small and the sun's light not large, then, when the sun started to climb over the horizon, it would not illuminate the whole earth. I just tried that experiment with my iPhone light and a large book (my Gemara, in fact).

That's what confused me, not the issue of intensity. In any case, the conditions of my experiment correspond to falsities about what was known about the world, even for flat earthers (which neither Chazal nor the ancients were), so it's an experiment that shows nothing, except for the source of my confusion. Smile

Ok, so let’s move on. What do you have to say about Daf 11? Smile

(Also, try the experiment with something flat, like a table top...)

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 8:57 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

11a it is..

I don't see the difference between the virgin and widow

I would think there would be more worries and anxiety by the widow, maybe he wont measure up ( pun intended) to the first husband.

A footnote in the Soncino translation says that the husband is worried about whether or not he'll find that she is indeed a virgin. I didn't really see this in Rashi. I find it hard to read Rashi on Gemara, but it seems to me he's saying that the chatan is worried about doing the act itself. I can see two ways to interpret that. First, he may be a virgin himself. A virgin marrying a virgin is like the blind leading the blind, while if a virgin marries a widow, she can help guide him. Second, even if he's experienced, it's hard guiding someone who has no experience. Well, enough about that. If this is too explicit for a public forum, I'll gladly delete it.

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 9:08 pm

I really liked the passage halfway down 11a that starts with a baraita about Beit Hillel (who says you can say Shema while sitting up, lying down, walking, or doing work) and then continues with a story from the Tosefta about R. Yishmael and R. Elazar ben Azariah. R Yishmael and R. E b A were hanging out together. R. Y was lying down and R. E b A was sitting. The time for Shema came. R. E b A lay down, at which point R. Y sat up. R E b A was like, "Are you doing this to spite me?" (That wasn't literally what he said.). R. Y said that he had to sit up because otherwise people would think they were going according to Beit Shammai.

I thought it was fascinating that sometimes you have to go out of your way to make sure people don't misinterpret your actions.

amother

Mustard

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:02 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

In a shiur a couple of years ago, I heard that the reason is similar that what you saw in the Soncino, with the added explanation, that he is worried about having to renegotiate the kesuvah, if he doesn’t find a besulim. DH disagrees with that, because he says That would be a financial concern (similar to the foundering ship) rather than a concern about the mitzvah itself.

DH says the concern is about being able to complete the act the first night, thereby fulfilling the mitzvah, as it is more difficult with a besulah (from a physical standpoint, as well as the reasons mentioned above). In any case, point being that it has to be concern regarding the mitzvah itself rather than personal or financial concerns.

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:21 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Thanks! It looks like I understood the Rashi correctly then.

malki2

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:33 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Basically what you said seems correct. Just check all the posts on Imamother regarding first night. The marriage doesn’t always get consummated on the first night.

naturalmom5

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 10:52 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Yes it reminded me of the joke

The Brisker Rov Was lighting menora and there was a broom in the room
The B Rov told someone take the broom out sold people shouldnt think you need a broom to light menora

So now all the Briskers put a broom in the room , take it out , then light

malki2

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:22 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Yes, exactly. It wasn’t the lying down, but the fact that he was clearly negating what Hillel said. If R. Tarfon had been lying down at home, that wouldn’t have been bad. In fact, it would have been consistent with what Hillel
said, since Hillel said you could do your preference (standing or lying) wrt Shema. But since in this case no one would prefer to lie in the middle of the street , it’s clear that he was *not* following Hillel.

Also, Rabbanit Farber has made clear that when Chazal said that someone was chayav mitah for something, it often doesn’t literally mean that they are truly deserving of death. It was Chazal’s way of indicating severe displeasure. It was often used when they felt that people weren’t taking a halacha seriously enough.

DH told me that it says in the Yerushalmi regarding the story of R Tarfon that because he transgressed they words of BH he was חייב מיתה על שם ופורץ גדר ישכנו נחש. And the Yerushalmi compared it to Zakein Mamrei.

naturalmom5

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:36 pm

There is a very fascinating Rasba , if there is a specific nusach that is fixed in stone, or only certain phrases are essential, but the actual nussach is flexible.
The Rasba , R"T, and Rabeinu Yonah hold it is flexible, but the Rambam strongly diasagrees with them. ( Hilchos KS 1.7, Hilchos Brochos 1.5)
This leads to a discussion of the 12 gates or nussachos based on inyani sod according to the Ari Zal.
According to the Mogen Avrohom, based on a Yerushalmi , this means that the kehilla decides what its minhag is based on what the Gedolim decide. (Siman 68)
Not that the individual can do what he wants.
On this, we understand how the Baal Shem Tov and Mezritcher Maggid could switch from Askenaz, to something resembling Sefard based on the inyani emes ( Kabbalistic meditations) of the Arizal.
Of course. Reb Moshe and R Henkin didn't agree with this and ruled that one can switch back to Askenaz , but not the other way
See the Iggoros Moshe Orach Ch 2.24
Also look at the Chasam Sofer, Siman 15.. who discusses keeping your father's mesora

naturalmom5

Tue, Jan 14 2020, 11:48 pm

If this is your custom because this is the heritage of your ancestors, then you should generally not change your custom. However, some (Lithuanian) poskim write that one may change from Sephard to Ashkenaz. If a parent is makpid that a son should not change his nusach, the son should heed his father’s kepeidah.

Sources:

Magen Avraham (68) writes that a person should not change his nusach. Avodas Hakodesh (Chida, Kesher Godal 12:9) also writes that one should not change his father’s customs, for each nusach of prayer has a source (a “gate” in heaven); concerning customs in general, see Shaul U’meishiv, vol. 3, 1:247, who writes that one should not change customs.

Concerning nusach ashkenaz and nusach sephard, the Chasam Sofer (no. 15) famously writes that all nuschaos are equal , whereas Divrei Chaim (2:8, also quoting from Mishnas Chassidim) writes that the nusach of Arizal has a special virtue, though he only writes that somebody unclear about his own nusach should adopt it. In spite of the above mentioned Magen Avraham, Maharam Shik (CM 24)writes that somebody whose soul desires nusach sephard may change over; on the other hand, Iggros Moshe writes that somebody may change back to the original nusach ashkenaz, but not vice versa. See also Minchas Elazar (1:11); Keren David(19); Maharam of Brisk (2:28); Zichron Yehudah (15).

These sources all refer to an ‘ancestral custom.’ For a nusach that one has become accustomed to due to lack of alternative, or for some other reason, the restriction on changing nusach will not apply, and a baal teshuva without a solid ancestral custom can check which nusach and style of davening he most connects with.

naturalmom5

Wed, Jan 15 2020, 12:54 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Daf 11b

R’Rosner mentioned several reasons for saying two Birchas HaTorah, but the one that resonated with me the most is the one from the Steipler - that the first one is a Birchas HaMitzvah and the second one is a Birchas HaNehenin. May we all be zocheh to enjoy . . . Smile

See the SA OC 47 with explanation of the Gra, as well as the Brisker Rov on the Rambam Hilchos Brochos 1..7

JoyInTheMorning

Wed, Jan 15 2020, 4:17 am

malki2 wrote:

“DH told me”? I’m thinking now that not only are you doing Daf Yomi, you’ve also been learning the Yerushalmi!

JoyInTheMorning

Wed, Jan 15 2020, 6:31 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Does a husband *have* to renegotiate the ketubah if his wife is not a virgin? Yes, he has “overpaid” by 100 zuzim, but if he decides he’ll live with that, is that so bad?

I am not even going to get into the whole issue of women who didn’t have the simanim of virginity even when they were virgins — like Rivka, after she fell off the camel.

I think the simpler and more credible explanation is the one that Rashi gives, that he’s concerned it will be more difficult to do the act — whether or not she’s ever done the equivalent of falling off a camel.

morningsickness

Wed, Jan 15 2020, 7:05 am

Just wanted to let you know how inspiring I've been finding this thread.
My husband just finished the Shas- Daf Yomi Cycle. have always wanted to learn gemarah but was scared that maybe I want to do it for the wrong reason (I have a rebellious, radical feminist streak in me LOL

)

However, seeing how you ladies are learning Gemarah in such a Lishmah manner, and learning it in such a feminine way (connectiing tou our lives etc.) gives me hope that I can learn too, one day. Be'ezrat Hashem.

תלכנה מחיל אל חיל

JoyInTheMorning

Wed, Jan 15 2020, 7:48 am

morningsickness wrote:

You can join now! You've only missed 10 Dapim. Jump in on Daf 12, and worry about making the rest up later. (I highly recommend Rabbanit Michelle Cohen Farber's shiur at hadran.org.il and available as a podcast.) Welcome!

Regarding what you said:

Quote:

learning it in such a feminine way

I agree. Of course we are indeed just as capable of logical reasoning as men, but each one of us adds a different dimension, and our experiences as women and our connections to our families do make it a different experience for us, and allow us to contribute something different and new to the ongoing conversation about Gemara as well. (I'm in the Tamar Ross camp here; see her book Expanding the Palace of Torah.) It certainly doesn't mean we will stop cooking and baking and wearing makeup and otherwise being feminine!

amother

Mustard

Wed, Jan 15 2020, 11:54 am

morningsickness wrote:

Regarding “connecting to our lives” While I very much enjoy the give-and-take and logical reasoning, and I love knowing where Halachos are derived from, I have definitely changed my life by making what I learn part of it. For example, since learning Brachos (a couple of years ago) I have started davening Maariv and getting up in time to say krias shema b’zmanah, etc. I often remember gemaros that I have learned while davening and doing mitzvos.

One of the things I love about R’ Rosner’s shiur is that in addition to bringing up many “shas topics” and opinions of Rishonim and Acharonim, he often discusses the Halacha L’Ma’aseh implications of what we are learning in addition to the lomdus. Besides the enjoyment I get from it, I believe that learning has significantly increased and improved my performance of mitzvos..