Do u really believe

zaq

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 6:12 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

This is what I was referring to when I spoke of false messiah disasters. They usually crop up during times of persecution when there is a certain desperate conviction that only the coming of Mashiach can make things better. Desperate people are easy prey for charlatans of every type, and those who do calculations and think they’ve figured out the timing only make matters worse. Shabtai Tzvi was probably the most infamous false messiah aside from the one from Nazareth but he was only one of many. Their victims were all good pious people who truly believed and truly yearned. That’s what made them so vulnerable.

Leave calculations to the actuaries.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 8:29 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

If any of us really believed that Moshiach could come any minute, none of us would be living in houses, or putting any money into the houses once we owned them, or spending money on endless THINGS that we fill our house with that we'd have to leave behind.

I WANT to believe that Moshiach can come any minute, and if you ask me if it could occur, of course I would agree, but my actions belie my beliefs. So what is true?

We have to live normally.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 8:35 am

sequoia wrote:

For anyone wondering what to wear: anything you own will be shockingly immodest by bronze age standards. You would probably be killed with rocks before you had the chance to say, “hi, Moshiach.”

Techiyas hameisim doesn't happen all at once. I believe that the people who will be revived will be those with big hearts and ayin tova, who will look at us with tears in their eyes and say, "My children, I can't believe you have managed to endure and thrive in the face of this spiritually dangerous, cynical, superficial world. You are the children and grandchildren I davened for." And then, they will hug us. (We're going to be sharing a lot of great great direct ancestors.)

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 8:36 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Believing that Moshiach could come any day is not the same as believing that he will come in the next 220 years. I worry when I see these predictions. There have been several such predictions over the years, they have proved incorrect, and they have caused terrible sorrow and damage to the Jewish people.

I’m on a phone now and am not good at copying and pasting links, but Google to find Rabbi Israel Chait’s excellent 1992 letter discussing predictions regarding Moshiach.

Predictions are scary. That's not the same as believing Moshiach could come today.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 9:10 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Predictions are scary. That's not the same as believing Moshiach could come today.

Agreed. I posted what I did in response to several posters who proclaimed that it is absolutely certain that Moshiach must come within 220 years. We can believe he can come any day without believing that he must come by a certain date.

Odelyah

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 9:17 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Yes. 100%. Having more then one wife was considered a less then ideal solution to childlessness. It was NOT considered something to strive for.

This. We say a bracha under the chuppah that the chassan and kallah should be happy like Adam and Chava in gan eden. The first, ideal couple was one man and one woman who were 2 halves of a whole. This was always the ideal.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 9:44 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

There are mekoros for the year 6000, vs. some of the other calculations that have historically come up.

kenz

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 10:29 am

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

This brought tears to my eyes.
Am I the only one who is terrified for milchemes gog umagog? So many horrible things are supposed to happen.

When my baby passed away many years ago, I was 1000% certain Moshiach was coming imminently. So much so that when the first yahrtzeit came, I was dumbfounded. I could not wrap my head around the fact that it was a whole year and he hadn't come, and that meant that perhaps Hashem really did intend for me to continue life without my baby. My husband still comments on how stunned and devastated I was that Moshiach hadn't arrived. Now, probably based on those emotions, I fervently hope and pray for him to come asap, but I'm not necessarily expecting him to knock on the door any minute. I do see it as a chisaron in me, though.

imasoftov

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 10:36 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Techiyas hameisim doesn't happen all at once ...

As I've postged before: Techiyat Hameitim does not necessarily come immediately with Mashiach. Perhaps not even close, as Rambam writes in his Mishna commentary that Mashiach will die and be succeeded by a dynasty

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 10:39 am

imasoftov wrote:

Right. So the question is, who's doing the stoning? No one alive now I would assume. People who came back and are shocked at how we look now? As I said, anyone who's first in line to come back (and that doesn't contradict Moshiach dying and the world proceeding as usual, does it?) will look at us with an ayin tova, guaranteed.

imasoftov

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 10:56 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

It seems to me that if one believed that Mashiach would come today, it might be inappropriate to arrange for a place to live but as the belief is that Mashiach can come today, there is at least a possibility that one might have need for a bed with a roof over it tonight, so it's reasonable to arrange that. There's a story about the Chofetz Chaim living in a home without furniture because he was "just passing through" until Mashiach came, but he did live inside.

allthingsblue

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 11:00 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Why? There are opinions that say our houses will come with us. I am not going to start cheshboning what will be because we really don't know what will be. I can put $ in my house as long as I understand that what's most important to me is the ultimate geulah and that I'm willing to leave it behind if that's what Hashem wants. I ultimately believe Hashem loves us and will take care of us, and I don't need to calculate how it will be done.

Odelyah

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 11:10 am

PinkFridge wrote:

We have to live normally.

My Morah, Rebbetzin Chaya Ausband shetichyeh used to tell a story about- tibadel bein ch"l'ch- her sister Rebbetzin Sorotzkin a"h. Apparently they were on a train together after the war and people were amazed how on the train, she had a set schedule with her husband Reb Baruch z"l and she would set the table nicely for meals at set times, etc. The idea being that wherever you are, in whatever situation, even if it's temporary, you follow your normal, dignified habits and don't just say oh it's just a temporary situation so I don't need to have the same standards or expectations of behavior for myself, whatever those standards are.

iyar

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 11:18 am

sequoia wrote:

For anyone wondering what to wear: anything you own will be shockingly immodest by bronze age standards. You would probably be killed with rocks before you had the chance to say, “hi, Moshiach.”

I’m sorry but you’re wrong.
I do sometimes think about what I’ll wear.
Today, every day, and on the day Mashiach arrives we all need to dress according to Torah standards, not Bronze Age, Ice Age, Victorian, or any other standards of human design.
(Also if you actually study the laws involved in carrying out death through judgment of Beis Din - I’m guessing you were talking about s’killa- you’ll learn that the list of prerequisites was long and complicated. I don’t know all the details, but I do know nobody got killed with rocks from one minute to the next.)

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 12:08 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

There are mekoros for the year 6000, vs. some of the other calculations that have historically come up.

I understand. There are mekorot in Sanhedrin, in fact. But we don’t know exactly whether our understanding of that Gemara is correct, or whether we are precise in our calculation of where we are in that 6000 year count. It is still doubtful it it is wise to make that prediction.

amother

Lemon

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 12:44 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

R Yehuda Henkin I believe has a teshuva where he says something like 'kol Yom sh yavo' is not the same as 'sh yavo Kol yom'. IOW the requirement of the ani maamin is to BELIEVE EVERY DAY that he will come. Not that every day he will come and that is what we believe.

It says 'kol Yom shyavo', not 'kol Yom shyhu ba'.

IOW the 'everyday' bit is about when it must be believed, not about when he will come.

That's what I believe.

Very interesting.

What about where it says כי לישועתך קוינו כל היום? It doesn't say כל יום, every day, but כל היום, the whole day. I learned the opposite of what you said above.

amother

Lemon

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 12:47 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

I’ll be honest.
Yes, I believe in theory and all. But I am terrified and don’t daven for it.
I’m scared. What if women go back to being second class citizens? What if I am scorned for not being frum enough? What if I have to lose all the things I love, like my books and creative arts?
When moshiach comes, they say women will have babies every day. I don’t want to! I will have hundreds of kids, never spend quality time with any of them? And what quality time? We will just be learning Torah all day, no?
What if my husband has another six wives? What if I want to read a novel, I won’t be allowed to? And what if I don’t want to boss around nonjews and treat them like slaves?

I know, I know, when moshiach comes we won’t even see the pleasure in gashmiyus and will just be happy to do hashem’s will and will find pleasure in all the above. But for now I am not there yet. So, no, I guess I don’t daven for moshiach.

According to the Rambam, when Moshiach comes, עולם כמנהגו נוהג - the world will function as it normally does. What will change is that the world will believe in Hashem - כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה' כמים לים מכסים, and this will lead to peace.

I believe that you are referring to the times of Olam Haba, but that is considered to be a stage past the days of Moshiach.

amother

Bisque

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:35 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

To be honest I think what you quoted from shemoneh esrei supports R Henkin's view. Kivinu Kol hayom - we have been waiting all day. The 'all/every' aspect is related to how we wait, not when we expect.

amother

Lemon

Mon, Jan 27 2020, 5:47 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

Again, the pasuk means that we are waiting for Moshiach the entire day. That implies that we expect that Moshiach will come at any minute, not that we believe the entire day that he will come. Your interpretation implies that otherwise, some people believe he will come for part of the day, but don't believe the other part of the day. The reason כל היום is said is that we eagerly await his arrival the entire day.