Discussion on the Daf - Shabbat

malki2

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 4:54 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Quote:

If someone is lax about the meal following bloodletting, then from the Heavenly Court they are lax about supplying his provisions, for they say, "If he does not show concern for his own life, shall I show concern for him?"

Whoa. Discuss.

כל מי שאין בו דעה אין מרחמין עליו

malki2

Tue, Jul 14 2020, 6:31 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Quote:

Whoa. Discuss.

Out of the last however many Daf, this is the part that warrants a “Whoa. Discuss.”???

imorethanamother

Wed, Jul 15 2020, 11:36 pm

malki2 wrote:

Out of the last however many Daf, this is the part that warrants a “Whoa. Discuss.”???

Well, I wanted to discuss the snake and the woman thing, but no one was really on board. Very Happy

I find it difficult to see that someone who makes a poor health choice, Hashem will NOT take care of his monetary needs. So anyone who smokes? Eats some chocolate? Forgets to exercise?

Aylat

Fri, Jul 17 2020, 12:16 am

imorethanamother wrote:

What are the full accounting of Shlosh Esre Middos She-ha-Torah Nidereshes? I can't find a complete list, only random examples. (Kal v'chomer, etc)

http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclop.....1=505 (in Hebrew)

ETA the שלוש עשרה מידות של רבי ישמעאל are written in many סידורים after the section on קרבנות, before פסוקי דזמרה.

imorethanamother

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 12:25 am

See, this daf blew my mind. I never knew that a C section doesn't even need eight days to the bris. I didn't know that fertility treatments count, a C section counts as to whether you can be docheh shabbos for a bris.

And I must confess I don't understand the laws of the eved Knaani AT ALL. Why would we have to circumcise the child? Why is this even an issue? Why are we forcing the woman to go to the mikvah?

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 12:32 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Lots of fascinating stuff here. Worth noting that when the gemara speaks of C-section, the understanding is that the mother died in labor and the baby was extracted to save its life. Women generally didn't survive caesarean births.

malki2

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 2:37 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

How do you know that? Then why does the Gemara say that she doesn’t have טומאת לידה?

imorethanamother

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 2:43 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

That's not how it was explained at all. It's true, historically, however, so that's an interesting conundrum. It also seems quite painful to describe that a baby born in the eighth month is considered muktzah and shouldn't be touched.

Also, Rabbi Lebowitz touched on if a baby with Down Syndrome should have a bris docheh shabbos or other types of births but didn't go into it and now I want to know more but I think I'm stuck and he's not explaining further.

Interesting, he also touched on the pregnant besulah and kohen marriage possibility, which seems coincidental based on some other imamother threads around here. (I don't know enough about the topic to discuss)

All in all, there was so much that I really just didn't know. I mean, sure, I don't know a lot, like all the different terumos and what makes you tumah, but this seems so odd that I didn't know about it and I'm a woman with boys. No one ever asked me if I had fertility treatments or anything.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 3:04 am

malki2 wrote:

How do you know that? Then why does the Gemara say that she doesn’t have טומאת לידה?

She doesn't have טומאת לידה. She just happens to be dead. The issue is connecting מילה to conception and to post-partum tumah.

malki2

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 4:11 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

She doesn't have טומאת לידה. She just happens to be dead. The issue is connecting מילה to conception and to post-partum tumah.

How do you know that that’s the reason why she doesn’t have טומאת לידה? And where do you see from the Gemara that most women who had a C-section were already dead.

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 4:31 am

imorethanamother wrote:

The reason for the circumcision and the mikvah is because an eved knaani is a quasi-Jew (who is obligated in all the same mitzvos as a woman). The eved undergoes a bris and both eved and shifcha go to the mikvah when as part of the initial process. The difference in timing for the bris of the baby depends upon if he is born to a mother who has already completed the process (and is a halachic shofcha knaanis) - in which case he would receive a bris on the eighth day (same as any male member of the household), or if he was born to a mother who has not completed the process - in which case he would receive a bris immediately (as part of his own process).

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 4:45 am

imorethanamother wrote:

I find it difficult to see that someone who makes a poor health choice, Hashem will NOT take care of his monetary needs. So anyone who smokes? Eats some chocolate? Forgets to exercise?

Our actions have consequences - not all of which are considered and anticipated, while engaging in those behaviors. An occasional poor health choice (e.g. eating a piece of chocolate, occasionally forgetting to exercise, etc.) is not likely to have much of an impact and is different from a pattern of unhealthy lifestyle choices (e.g. smoking, junk-food diet, sedentary lifestyle etc.). People who engage in unhealthy lifestyles often face unanticipated monetary consequences in addition to the deleterious health effects (e.g. high price of cigarettes along with increased insurance costs for smokers). . .

Aylat

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 5:02 am

imorethanamother wrote:

I learned this at 4am one Shabbat morning lying on the operating table for an emergency C-section.

Me: Well, I guess it will be a Shabbos bris.

Secular theatre nurse: No, not for a C-section baby. The bris will be on Sunday.

I checked with DH later who confirmed. I love Israelis.

What's the halacha re fertility treatments?

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 5:16 am

malki2 wrote:

How do you know that that’s the reason why she doesn’t have טומאת לידה? And where do you see from the Gemara that most women who had a C-section were already dead.

I think you're misunderstanding me. She doesn't have טומאת לידה because of the C-section. She also happens to be dead. Two separate things.

The gemara doesn't say anything about the woman dying because survival wasn't an option. Of course she was dead.

Shulchan Aruch, אורח חיים של
היושבת על המשבר ומתה מביאים סכין בשבת אפי' דרך רשות הרבים וקורעים בטנה ומוציאים הולד שמא ימצא חי: הגה ומה שאין נוהגין עכשיו כן אפילו בחול משום דאין בקיאין להכיר במיתת האם בקרוב כל כך שאפשר לולד לחיות: (איסור והיתר):

https://www.news-medical.net/a......aspx

malki2

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 5:23 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I understood. But I was understanding that a C-section baby is different because it is not considered a לידה, even if the mother lives.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 5:30 am

malki2 wrote:

I understood. But I was understanding that a C-section baby is different because it is not considered a לידה, even if the mother lives.

Right. But that only became a possibility in the modern age. Women in the 5th century didn't live through major abdominal surgery.

malki2

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 5:37 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

Right. But that only became a possibility in the modern age. Women in the 5th century didn't live through major abdominal surgery.

Do you know that from the Gemara or from elsewhere?

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Jul 20 2020, 5:51 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

Right. But that only became a possibility in the modern age. Women in the 5th century didn't live through major abdominal surgery.

I always thought this as well, but I just found this intriguing line in Wikipedia - “ The Babylonian Talmud, an ancient Jewish religious text, mentions a procedure similar to the caesarean section. The procedure is termed yotzei dofen. It also discusses at length the permissibility of performing a c-section on a dying or dead mother.[108] There is also some basis for supposing that Jewish women regularly survived the operation in Roman times.[113]” (Footnote 113: Boss J (1961). "The Antiquity of Caesarean Section with Maternal Survival: The Jewish Tradition". Medical History. 5 (2): 117–31.) I don’t have time to read it now, but here is a link to the article it references.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....1.pdf